1 00:00:37,349 --> 00:00:21,830 [Music] 2 00:00:44,299 --> 00:00:41,849 explore the bazaars or e-ticket ride 3 00:00:47,579 --> 00:00:44,309 into the world of the paranormal 4 00:00:51,889 --> 00:00:47,589 strap yourself in as we traverse the 5 00:00:55,009 --> 00:00:51,899 universe exploring the unexplained UFO s 6 00:00:57,389 --> 00:00:55,019 ghosts Lost Worlds 7 00:01:01,259 --> 00:00:57,399 cryptozoology as well as other 8 00:01:06,389 --> 00:01:01,269 dimensions it's time to take back the 9 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:06,399 night now your electrifying hosts of 10 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:09,490 exploring the bizarre Timothy Begley and 11 00:01:19,830 --> 00:01:17,170 team sports hey Tim Tim Backlund what 12 00:01:25,949 --> 00:01:19,840 are all these documents on your desk 13 00:01:29,850 --> 00:01:25,959 gosh that's that's quite a pile it's 14 00:01:32,850 --> 00:01:29,860 secret stuff classified documents on all 15 00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:32,860 sorts of conspiracy a large part of it 16 00:01:41,479 --> 00:01:38,110 is all about the UFO mystery okay where 17 00:01:44,009 --> 00:01:41,489 did you get this from 18 00:01:48,229 --> 00:01:44,019 having this kind of material can get you 19 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:48,239 in a lot of trouble I got it from my 20 00:01:54,029 --> 00:01:51,970 contacts at week leaks it's part of 21 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:54,039 William Cooper's it's part of William 22 00:01:59,369 --> 00:01:56,530 Cooper's vast collection of papers found 23 00:02:02,490 --> 00:01:59,379 in this hilltop retreat after he was 24 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:02,500 gunned down by the police okay okay okay 25 00:02:06,979 --> 00:02:05,530 I guess I guess we should save this for 26 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:06,989 tonight's show 27 00:02:14,910 --> 00:02:11,890 well I I think we we we should so let me 28 00:02:19,860 --> 00:02:14,920 tidy up these documents just a little so 29 00:02:22,830 --> 00:02:19,870 I can refer to them so how are you out 30 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:22,840 there Tim in Jasper Indiana you get 31 00:02:27,990 --> 00:02:24,730 ready for the big snow yeah we're not 32 00:02:30,330 --> 00:02:28,000 gonna get any snow here no now what do 33 00:02:31,369 --> 00:02:30,340 you live in the Baja live in the Bahamas 34 00:02:33,750 --> 00:02:31,379 or something 35 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:33,760 now we're just we're just going to get a 36 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:37,530 lot of rain and and then possibly some 37 00:02:42,479 --> 00:02:40,810 some ice I would prefer the snow over 38 00:02:45,449 --> 00:02:42,489 the ice but we'll just have to say oh 39 00:02:47,580 --> 00:02:45,459 boy that's the problem 40 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:47,590 making it around New York when you get 41 00:02:53,830 --> 00:02:51,170 this ice it's just like really slip 42 00:02:55,570 --> 00:02:53,840 and you know we're on a block where 43 00:02:59,260 --> 00:02:55,580 there's all this construction going on 44 00:03:02,380 --> 00:02:59,270 and so nobody you know nobody really 45 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:02,390 shovels it's the ice collects and you 46 00:03:07,210 --> 00:03:04,130 got to kind of hold on to something is 47 00:03:09,850 --> 00:03:07,220 you you scoot down the block but it is 48 00:03:13,990 --> 00:03:09,860 it is you know winter time and in winter 49 00:03:17,020 --> 00:03:14,000 time you have to brave the elements just 50 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:17,030 like we brave everything in everyday 51 00:03:21,910 --> 00:03:17,930 life 52 00:03:24,900 --> 00:03:21,920 so I guess well I was going to say maybe 53 00:03:28,479 --> 00:03:24,910 you should get your Elon Musk brand 54 00:03:36,540 --> 00:03:28,489 flamethrower out and melt the smell and 55 00:03:38,650 --> 00:03:36,550 ice absolutely right in the closet I 56 00:03:41,350 --> 00:03:38,660 guess we'll make it through you know at 57 00:03:43,330 --> 00:03:41,360 least in New York yeah they'll deliver 58 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:43,340 anything you want right to your door 59 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:44,570 I mean you don't have to worry about 60 00:03:50,860 --> 00:03:47,450 going hungry or anything I'm I'm right 61 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:50,870 above a Persian restaurant in fact I ate 62 00:03:57,130 --> 00:03:54,170 down there yesterday and there's so much 63 00:04:00,640 --> 00:03:57,140 food I got enough to ask me at least one 64 00:04:02,530 --> 00:04:00,650 day now but anyway we're not here to 65 00:04:06,670 --> 00:04:02,540 talk about the food or Persian 66 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:06,680 restaurants or or or ice we're here to 67 00:04:12,069 --> 00:04:10,090 talk about matters involving 68 00:04:17,860 --> 00:04:12,079 conspiracies I guess that would be our 69 00:04:21,490 --> 00:04:17,870 main topic tonight sure yeah that that 70 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:21,500 works for me well we've got two 71 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:25,610 fantastic guests tonight Tim first of 72 00:04:31,810 --> 00:04:30,050 all we have mark Jacobson now mark is a 73 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:31,820 well-traveled writer whose work has 74 00:04:36,310 --> 00:04:34,610 appeared in just all kinds of different 75 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:36,320 magazines including the Village Voice 76 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:39,289 New York magazine Rolling Stone National 77 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:42,770 Geographic Esquire and others he's also 78 00:04:48,430 --> 00:04:45,410 the author of three novels and several 79 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:48,440 non-fiction books and and did you know 80 00:04:53,110 --> 00:04:50,450 this the the movies American Gangster 81 00:04:59,320 --> 00:04:53,120 and the TV show taxi are based off of 82 00:05:01,719 --> 00:04:59,330 his work now his new book and his new 83 00:05:03,770 --> 00:05:01,729 book which is what we're going to be 84 00:05:07,940 --> 00:05:03,780 talking about tonight 85 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:07,950 in in part is a pale horse rider William 86 00:05:14,690 --> 00:05:11,250 Cooper the rise of conspiracy and the 87 00:05:18,260 --> 00:05:14,700 fall of trust in America so I'm looking 88 00:05:23,030 --> 00:05:18,270 forward to talking to Marc about this 89 00:05:26,570 --> 00:05:23,040 book now also with us tonight is Stephan 90 00:05:28,970 --> 00:05:26,580 Erdman now Steve having spent a lifetime 91 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:28,980 living and struggling in the ways and 92 00:05:34,790 --> 00:05:31,890 styles of a born and bred Midwestern er 93 00:05:39,430 --> 00:05:34,800 now wants to share the experiences of 94 00:05:42,470 --> 00:05:39,440 fellow st. Louis st. Lou Lewis ins 95 00:05:45,710 --> 00:05:42,480 people from st. Louis split that way and 96 00:05:48,230 --> 00:05:45,720 those of the Mississippi Basin now he's 97 00:05:51,650 --> 00:05:48,240 written on the paranormal and government 98 00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:51,660 conspiracies for magazines such as probe 99 00:05:58,400 --> 00:05:54,290 the unknown I remember that one last 100 00:06:02,780 --> 00:05:58,410 Gnostic anews beyond reality UFO enigma 101 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:02,790 UFO digest fate magazine UNIX magazine 102 00:06:09,969 --> 00:06:06,330 and others and Tim you were saying that 103 00:06:13,070 --> 00:06:09,979 you've known Steve for a long time 104 00:06:17,570 --> 00:06:13,080 you're missing one publication there the 105 00:06:19,820 --> 00:06:17,580 interplanetary news service report right 106 00:06:23,060 --> 00:06:19,830 yeah yeah I was grinding out on a 107 00:06:27,770 --> 00:06:23,070 mimeograph machine but when I was a teen 108 00:06:29,870 --> 00:06:27,780 and and Steve was a contributor and then 109 00:06:32,030 --> 00:06:29,880 I I lost touch with him for quite a 110 00:06:35,510 --> 00:06:32,040 while and then he he popped up on 111 00:06:39,620 --> 00:06:35,520 Facebook and so here we are all tonight 112 00:06:44,659 --> 00:06:39,630 this is a grand this is a grand show in 113 00:06:48,740 --> 00:06:44,669 fact yeah mark is a terrific writer and 114 00:06:50,210 --> 00:06:48,750 you know I met him oh I guess mark what 115 00:06:58,340 --> 00:06:50,220 is about a year and a half ago would you 116 00:07:00,920 --> 00:06:58,350 say longer than that well anyway yeah 117 00:07:04,130 --> 00:07:00,930 you had just started I guess putting a 118 00:07:06,530 --> 00:07:04,140 pen to a paper on this book about 119 00:07:09,020 --> 00:07:06,540 William Cooper and I I guess you realize 120 00:07:10,159 --> 00:07:09,030 that I had through our mutual friend 121 00:07:14,450 --> 00:07:10,169 ratso 122 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:14,460 you had I guess realized that I had had 123 00:07:17,610 --> 00:07:16,530 several meetings with the bill Cooper 124 00:07:20,159 --> 00:07:17,620 who a 125 00:07:23,010 --> 00:07:20,169 course was a very controversial figure I 126 00:07:26,730 --> 00:07:23,020 mean there's no doubt about that at all 127 00:07:38,580 --> 00:07:26,740 and I'm sure your your book indicates 128 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:38,590 that is is well yes anyway let's go back 129 00:07:44,969 --> 00:07:42,370 to the to the roots of this how with 130 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:44,979 your background here you work for New 131 00:07:50,700 --> 00:07:47,770 York magazine and you have some pretty 132 00:07:53,159 --> 00:07:50,710 good credentials why did you decide or 133 00:07:56,610 --> 00:07:53,169 what fascinated you about Bill Cooper 134 00:08:02,790 --> 00:07:56,620 who had many decides to his personality 135 00:08:08,460 --> 00:08:02,800 I mean talk about multiple personality 136 00:08:10,020 --> 00:08:08,470 called people work through Cooper's well 137 00:08:11,790 --> 00:08:10,030 I mean I don't know I mean I never met 138 00:08:16,409 --> 00:08:11,800 the man of course he's dead by the time 139 00:08:18,719 --> 00:08:16,419 now but actually go Cooper was sort of 140 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:18,729 like I don't know what my career it 141 00:08:23,730 --> 00:08:21,130 seems like these things I don't really 142 00:08:28,589 --> 00:08:23,740 go after this story and like come back 143 00:08:30,779 --> 00:08:28,599 to me you know what happening then you 144 00:08:32,010 --> 00:08:30,789 kind of feel like oh this this is 145 00:08:35,010 --> 00:08:32,020 something that needs to be dealt with 146 00:08:36,949 --> 00:08:35,020 them my first mid I first heard about 147 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:36,959 Cooper the first thing I knew about him 148 00:08:47,699 --> 00:08:43,450 was when with 1991 and I was my friend 149 00:08:50,850 --> 00:08:47,709 Hal Conrad who the famous kind of New 150 00:08:52,410 --> 00:08:50,860 York City bon vivant kind of guy used to 151 00:08:55,949 --> 00:08:52,420 be the press agent of the Brooklyn 152 00:08:58,890 --> 00:08:55,959 Dodgers and you know he was muhammad' 153 00:09:00,420 --> 00:08:58,900 out he's pressing again actually he 154 00:09:03,390 --> 00:09:00,430 actually was the promoter of the 155 00:09:07,710 --> 00:09:03,400 Muhammad Ali Sonny Liston fighting 156 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:07,720 Lewiston Maine which was the one where 157 00:09:14,850 --> 00:09:10,930 anybody brave he was dying right and I 158 00:09:17,730 --> 00:09:14,860 met his son who's there and and he said 159 00:09:20,340 --> 00:09:17,740 how was complete pot smoker and like who 160 00:09:23,699 --> 00:09:20,350 asked was he never said or did you bring 161 00:09:26,190 --> 00:09:23,709 a joint and the West was I had my 162 00:09:28,949 --> 00:09:26,200 run-ins today really his son said I had 163 00:09:30,090 --> 00:09:28,959 to come by the sons house which is not 164 00:09:33,990 --> 00:09:30,100 the partner 165 00:09:35,790 --> 00:09:34,000 from the hospital because we say he has 166 00:09:38,819 --> 00:09:35,800 something really important to filming 167 00:09:41,579 --> 00:09:38,829 and I thought it had to do with his 168 00:09:43,949 --> 00:09:41,589 father but it actually had to do with 169 00:09:47,850 --> 00:09:43,959 William Cooper's videotape 170 00:09:50,939 --> 00:09:47,860 I mean his 6,000 copy of the Zapruder 171 00:09:52,710 --> 00:09:50,949 film was supposedly until the driver 172 00:09:53,519 --> 00:09:52,720 turning around and shooting the 173 00:09:56,220 --> 00:09:53,529 president 174 00:09:58,860 --> 00:09:56,230 and if you smoke enough once you'll 175 00:10:02,730 --> 00:09:58,870 really see this thing happening right so 176 00:10:05,579 --> 00:10:02,740 um so that was like and I said weird 177 00:10:08,730 --> 00:10:05,589 stuff from that the son of my friend 178 00:10:11,699 --> 00:10:08,740 said well it's from William Cooper so I 179 00:10:13,050 --> 00:10:11,709 I just gonna throw that away I didn't 180 00:10:14,670 --> 00:10:13,060 really know much about Belle cooking 181 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:14,680 time although I was interested in the 182 00:10:23,759 --> 00:10:17,290 assassination things we read you know 183 00:10:26,220 --> 00:10:23,769 people I know welcome it and so I don't 184 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:26,230 know see you later about there's like 185 00:10:32,309 --> 00:10:30,250 one of the decades later I was only a 186 00:10:34,980 --> 00:10:32,319 couple years with actually I was walking 187 00:10:38,970 --> 00:10:34,990 down the street in Brooklyn there where 188 00:10:42,179 --> 00:10:38,980 I lived and I saw the wu-tang clan guy 189 00:10:42,689 --> 00:10:42,189 ol Dirty Bastard weaving behold the pale 190 00:10:45,150 --> 00:10:42,699 horse 191 00:10:47,699 --> 00:10:45,160 he was just sitting there on a stoop 192 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:47,709 remember all the pillars imaginary to or 193 00:10:52,050 --> 00:10:49,810 something like that I said well you know 194 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:52,060 I knew he was because I was a music 195 00:10:56,699 --> 00:10:54,490 critic and I went over and said well hey 196 00:11:00,389 --> 00:10:56,709 man how you doing and you just kind of 197 00:11:02,129 --> 00:11:00,399 looked up to me and said I'm and I said 198 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:02,139 what book is that he said lose above all 199 00:11:06,300 --> 00:11:03,610 the perilous this is the book you have 200 00:11:08,939 --> 00:11:06,310 to read so then lieutenant that was also 201 00:11:11,730 --> 00:11:08,949 by William Cooper so at that point I 202 00:11:13,620 --> 00:11:11,740 began to came on my radar and you know 203 00:11:18,170 --> 00:11:13,630 it kind of monitored this all alone and 204 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:18,180 then at the time when Donald Trump 205 00:11:22,860 --> 00:11:20,410 seemed like he was gonna become the 206 00:11:24,870 --> 00:11:22,870 president I thought that way you know it 207 00:11:26,910 --> 00:11:24,880 just sort of seemed like all made sense 208 00:11:29,069 --> 00:11:26,920 you know I should I should keep coming 209 00:11:32,370 --> 00:11:29,079 about Wayne Cooper so that was how he 210 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:32,380 made a man to do this book I hope that 211 00:11:38,370 --> 00:11:35,290 wasn't too long-winded no no no not at 212 00:11:39,990 --> 00:11:38,380 all but now okay well tell it tell the 213 00:11:43,939 --> 00:11:40,000 listeners a little bit about Bill Cooper 214 00:11:46,599 --> 00:11:43,949 I you know I knew that bill we had a 215 00:11:51,189 --> 00:11:46,609 somewhat tainted the business 216 00:11:58,280 --> 00:11:54,319 okay well let me tell you he would come 217 00:12:00,739 --> 00:11:58,290 to either San Diego or Phoenix where we 218 00:12:02,599 --> 00:12:00,749 would we were having our conferences and 219 00:12:05,659 --> 00:12:02,609 normally the speaker gives a 220 00:12:07,819 --> 00:12:05,669 presentation and the idea is to hook the 221 00:12:11,619 --> 00:12:07,829 audience into coming to your paid 222 00:12:15,289 --> 00:12:11,629 workshop well he was his he was just 223 00:12:20,479 --> 00:12:15,299 rising in popularity in fact at that 224 00:12:23,150 --> 00:12:20,489 time he was still into him oh yeah the 225 00:12:24,619 --> 00:12:23,160 book yeah the book was out and it but he 226 00:12:27,259 --> 00:12:24,629 was more and she he was still telling 227 00:12:31,159 --> 00:12:27,269 his UFO stories that's how he started 228 00:12:33,650 --> 00:12:31,169 you know with the UFO thing but then but 229 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:33,660 then I I believe that he got off of that 230 00:12:37,909 --> 00:12:35,730 kick because he realized that there were 231 00:12:40,699 --> 00:12:37,919 there's more money and a political 232 00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:40,709 approach to conspiracies rather than 233 00:12:45,079 --> 00:12:43,049 just selling you know of men from Mars 234 00:12:49,069 --> 00:12:45,089 or something like that so he would he 235 00:12:51,799 --> 00:12:49,079 came and he gave he gave a talk and he 236 00:12:56,119 --> 00:12:51,809 had over a hundred people signed up for 237 00:13:01,639 --> 00:12:56,129 his workshop very successful there were 238 00:13:03,470 --> 00:13:01,649 several works absolutely I you know 239 00:13:06,289 --> 00:13:03,480 tripled the number of people that 240 00:13:10,129 --> 00:13:06,299 anybody else and I would say and it was 241 00:13:11,900 --> 00:13:10,139 a hot day in in Phoenix and we had a 242 00:13:14,569 --> 00:13:11,910 room that I think the capacity was 243 00:13:16,249 --> 00:13:14,579 supposed to be you know like 90 people 244 00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:16,259 or something and there were over a 245 00:13:19,460 --> 00:13:17,910 hundred people in that room and the 246 00:13:22,159 --> 00:13:19,470 walls were hot I mean people that were 247 00:13:23,869 --> 00:13:22,169 like leaning up against the walls were 248 00:13:25,939 --> 00:13:23,879 you know we're we're get and you could 249 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:25,949 feel the heat coming from outside and he 250 00:13:32,029 --> 00:13:27,569 went out for about five hours 251 00:13:34,129 --> 00:13:32,039 I mean the man was he once he got 252 00:13:36,229 --> 00:13:34,139 rolling he would he would never stop 253 00:13:38,269 --> 00:13:36,239 well that was fine with Mia I made 254 00:13:40,579 --> 00:13:38,279 frankly a couple thousand dollars on it 255 00:13:42,769 --> 00:13:40,589 and and and so did he and I paid him in 256 00:13:45,529 --> 00:13:42,779 a check itself with and so on well I 257 00:13:48,829 --> 00:13:45,539 think we did it a second time but by the 258 00:13:52,220 --> 00:13:48,839 third time I rolled around he refused to 259 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:52,230 do the the workshop he wouldn't show up 260 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:54,569 at the the conference even though he was 261 00:13:57,670 --> 00:13:56,970 slated and and booked because he said I 262 00:14:01,710 --> 00:13:57,680 was an A 263 00:14:04,930 --> 00:14:01,720 the IRS well 264 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:04,940 what proof do we have for that well no 265 00:14:12,190 --> 00:14:08,810 you know what person like that well 266 00:14:15,130 --> 00:14:12,200 because he made so much money I had to 267 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:15,140 send him a what is it a 1099 or nine w-2 268 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:23,810 or or whatever form has been responsible 269 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:26,570 for his income I mean you know I I got 270 00:14:34,329 --> 00:14:29,890 it I draw the line somewhere so he 271 00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:34,339 refuses to show up and after that but he 272 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:36,800 probably clearly didn't show up because 273 00:14:47,199 --> 00:14:44,579 well you know he well no you know he 274 00:14:53,139 --> 00:14:47,209 hated the IRS and he never paid his 275 00:14:56,260 --> 00:14:53,149 taxes and you know he lived on the top 276 00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:56,270 of the hill and never came down and if 277 00:15:01,930 --> 00:14:58,010 you wanted him send the money you had to 278 00:15:03,850 --> 00:15:01,940 do it in a in the form of a postal money 279 00:15:08,970 --> 00:15:03,860 order anyway I don't want to take away 280 00:15:12,130 --> 00:15:08,980 if this is your story but so I'm very 281 00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:12,140 you know you're some I have a I have a 282 00:15:24,370 --> 00:15:14,000 lot of respect for people with you know 283 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:24,380 and because he'll give us give the 284 00:15:29,260 --> 00:15:26,930 listeners a little bit of a background 285 00:15:32,110 --> 00:15:29,270 about his military career and what he 286 00:15:33,850 --> 00:15:32,120 actually claimed well I mean the 287 00:15:35,740 --> 00:15:33,860 military stuff is pretty much on the 288 00:15:37,090 --> 00:15:35,750 nose as far as I can tell I mean you 289 00:15:41,170 --> 00:15:37,100 know I just went at this like a regular 290 00:15:42,940 --> 00:15:41,180 reporter that's what I am I'm a regular 291 00:15:44,769 --> 00:15:42,950 journalist I got interested in Bill 292 00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:44,779 copper but I thought he was a timely 293 00:15:50,769 --> 00:15:47,600 figure because what was going on now and 294 00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:50,779 also the historical stuff about him is 295 00:15:57,310 --> 00:15:53,680 fascinating because he existed before 296 00:15:59,530 --> 00:15:57,320 the internet so you know that the idea 297 00:16:02,829 --> 00:15:59,540 of a guy who was doing this conspiracy 298 00:16:04,540 --> 00:16:02,839 stuff in this kind of country in this 299 00:16:07,390 --> 00:16:04,550 world of like but you were talking about 300 00:16:10,330 --> 00:16:07,400 children also again was once you know 301 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:10,340 before 2001 before 302 00:16:15,850 --> 00:16:13,010 the World Trade Center your guys doing a 303 00:16:18,070 --> 00:16:15,860 whole different bag you know and and he 304 00:16:21,340 --> 00:16:18,080 was and he said a lot of these things 305 00:16:22,810 --> 00:16:21,350 forward but you know but but the bay the 306 00:16:24,730 --> 00:16:22,820 main thing about his military service 307 00:16:26,350 --> 00:16:24,740 was what that is really the turning 308 00:16:29,730 --> 00:16:26,360 point of bill Cooper's life you know 309 00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:29,740 because he's from this military family 310 00:16:35,079 --> 00:16:32,720 he's good everybody in his family is 311 00:16:37,540 --> 00:16:35,089 like in the Air Force or ordinary and 312 00:16:41,260 --> 00:16:37,550 they're like all officers of some type 313 00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:41,270 now he's obviously not I mean he's a 314 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:42,800 brilliant guy in a lot of ways but he's 315 00:16:47,470 --> 00:16:45,410 not officer material let's just say that 316 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:47,480 this is a bad drunk and what kind of 317 00:16:53,890 --> 00:16:48,050 stuff like that 318 00:17:00,190 --> 00:16:53,900 oh and and and and a nasty drunk at that 319 00:17:03,130 --> 00:17:00,200 I mean I he at one time stories yes at 320 00:17:05,050 --> 00:17:03,140 one point we were having a little party 321 00:17:07,660 --> 00:17:05,060 in the room and he got into a fight with 322 00:17:22,740 --> 00:17:07,670 this somebody and started taking off his 323 00:17:35,980 --> 00:17:27,970 was Eric Beck George who had problems of 324 00:17:43,060 --> 00:17:35,990 it that guy was why he went for yes he 325 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:43,070 did it like everybody else different 326 00:17:47,350 --> 00:17:45,410 story apparently but um you know what I 327 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:47,360 hear is that they just got in the big 328 00:17:58,210 --> 00:17:50,570 fistfight and convicted not Cooper down 329 00:18:01,930 --> 00:17:58,220 on the ground damn [\h__\h] I was out on 330 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:01,940 an alcohol run so I can't I can't say 331 00:18:11,980 --> 00:18:10,010 for sure but that's what he had this 332 00:18:14,190 --> 00:18:11,990 military career and while in the 333 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:14,200 military he claimed that he saw 334 00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:17,770 documents about UFOs and aliens correct 335 00:18:23,220 --> 00:18:20,500 yes then well the thing is 336 00:18:25,860 --> 00:18:23,230 before you gotta go I'm not gonna take 337 00:18:28,170 --> 00:18:25,870 forever let's do it quick I mean what 338 00:18:29,910 --> 00:18:28,180 happens with Cooper he's desperate to 339 00:18:30,830 --> 00:18:29,920 get into the military goes in the 340 00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:30,840 military 341 00:18:35,730 --> 00:18:33,760 yes seasickness so he can't go in the 342 00:18:38,130 --> 00:18:35,740 Navy where he wants to go he said he 343 00:18:39,570 --> 00:18:38,140 works in the Air Force then he gets out 344 00:18:41,490 --> 00:18:39,580 of the Air Force and goes in the Navy 345 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:41,500 and was desperate to get to the 346 00:18:45,810 --> 00:18:43,450 frontlines and Vietnam to prove 347 00:18:48,390 --> 00:18:45,820 something you know and they sell him 348 00:18:50,340 --> 00:18:48,400 there and it was it didn't go well I 349 00:18:53,190 --> 00:18:50,350 mean it was like you know he comes back 350 00:18:54,990 --> 00:18:53,200 and he's like you know completely PPS 351 00:18:56,610 --> 00:18:55,000 beat out and I mean you know it didn't 352 00:19:01,500 --> 00:18:56,620 help him didn't do many good that's for 353 00:19:02,940 --> 00:19:01,510 sure and then you know then you know 354 00:19:05,310 --> 00:19:02,950 they kept this kind of shell-shocked 355 00:19:07,500 --> 00:19:05,320 sailor and they and they move him - no - 356 00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:07,510 naval intelligence you know which I 357 00:19:12,270 --> 00:19:09,310 don't understand the military doing that 358 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:12,280 but that's what happened so he he was 359 00:19:16,530 --> 00:19:13,810 there and while he was in military 360 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:16,540 intelligence this is one of the great 361 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:18,850 questions about that Cooper like did he 362 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:21,250 really see anything or did he make the 363 00:19:26,370 --> 00:19:24,010 whole thing up so like you know and I 364 00:19:27,930 --> 00:19:26,380 don't have an opinion about that one 365 00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:27,940 player the other because I'm just the 366 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:31,120 writer you know I'm not trying to I'm 367 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:34,210 just a journalist so like any event what 368 00:19:40,410 --> 00:19:37,090 he said was he found a lot this huge 369 00:19:43,950 --> 00:19:40,420 catch of paper which was a you'd the 370 00:19:48,750 --> 00:19:43,960 whole UFO cover-up saying from now we're 371 00:19:51,090 --> 00:19:48,760 talking about 1975 it was already 25 372 00:19:53,670 --> 00:19:51,100 years worth of coverup and you know more 373 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:53,680 than that in the UFO thing it's indeed 374 00:19:59,310 --> 00:19:56,770 the stuff that Cooper is seeing is so is 375 00:20:02,100 --> 00:19:59,320 you know so organized as he claimed it 376 00:20:04,710 --> 00:20:02,110 was you know and he you know in the end 377 00:20:09,090 --> 00:20:04,720 all that stuff about these various new 378 00:20:10,860 --> 00:20:09,100 folk organizations and that crazy story 379 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:10,870 which I don't think he was a real 380 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:12,490 synthesizer he didn't make a lot of this 381 00:20:16,530 --> 00:20:15,130 stuff up or find anything out by himself 382 00:20:19,470 --> 00:20:16,540 he would just take all this stuff 383 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:19,480 together and well yes grapevines was 384 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:21,970 that was that the meeting between the 385 00:20:28,980 --> 00:20:25,570 aliens and Eisenhower at Edwards Air 386 00:20:31,020 --> 00:20:28,990 Force in 1954 which is such a great 387 00:20:32,940 --> 00:20:31,030 story I mean it's just one of the great 388 00:20:34,140 --> 00:20:32,950 stories in the history of conspiracy as 389 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:34,150 far as I can see 390 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:37,330 and then plus you know with the extra 391 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:39,610 added attraction of that story which I 392 00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:42,850 really tickles me I gotta say is that if 393 00:20:51,450 --> 00:20:46,510 you follow that story Eisenhower had to 394 00:20:54,030 --> 00:20:51,460 get away from you know being president 395 00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:54,040 or whatever he was you know 1964 yeah so 396 00:20:57,150 --> 00:20:55,600 we had to have an excuse to disappear 397 00:21:00,570 --> 00:20:57,160 for a while so he said he had to go to 398 00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:00,580 the dentist but his dentist was Timothy 399 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:10,960 Leary's father whitey I was so if you 400 00:21:16,350 --> 00:21:12,970 want to believe the story about the 401 00:21:18,510 --> 00:21:16,360 meeting of the aliens in 1954 you know 402 00:21:21,990 --> 00:21:18,520 the cover story about that has to do it 403 00:21:26,070 --> 00:21:22,000 to you very you know that the famous the 404 00:21:29,070 --> 00:21:26,080 payment elysee doctor well that part is 405 00:21:31,620 --> 00:21:29,080 new but the story had been around for 406 00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:31,630 many many years 407 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:33,760 it got started there was a group in 408 00:21:37,860 --> 00:21:35,530 California which actually still exists 409 00:21:40,620 --> 00:21:37,870 called BSR a borderline Sciences 410 00:21:43,770 --> 00:21:40,630 Research Association and the head of the 411 00:21:46,470 --> 00:21:43,780 group who I believe was Mead Lane at the 412 00:21:48,780 --> 00:21:46,480 time got a letter from Gerald light 413 00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:48,790 which was a pseudonym and he claimed 414 00:21:53,610 --> 00:21:50,320 that he had gone to Edwards Air Force 415 00:21:56,900 --> 00:21:53,620 Base which was Murdoch in those days and 416 00:21:59,250 --> 00:21:56,910 that Eisenhower had seen this craft and 417 00:22:02,480 --> 00:21:59,260 there were other witnesses there with 418 00:22:06,350 --> 00:22:02,490 him including I believe one was a 419 00:22:11,340 --> 00:22:06,360 Catholic a cardinal and somebody from 420 00:22:13,020 --> 00:22:11,350 one of the newspaper chains Gannett or 421 00:22:14,970 --> 00:22:13,030 something like that I don't remember 422 00:22:17,390 --> 00:22:14,980 exactly who the witnesses were but that 423 00:22:21,870 --> 00:22:17,400 story had been making the rounds for 424 00:22:24,930 --> 00:22:21,880 ages now I sold a lot of copies of pale 425 00:22:26,820 --> 00:22:24,940 horse but frankly between you and I as a 426 00:22:29,310 --> 00:22:26,830 publisher and a writer I didn't take 427 00:22:30,690 --> 00:22:29,320 much of the book I mean like you say 428 00:22:33,030 --> 00:22:30,700 it's a little bit of this and it's a 429 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:33,040 little bit of that and it's whatever you 430 00:22:39,750 --> 00:22:35,890 could throw in to make up enough foot 431 00:22:42,570 --> 00:22:39,760 you know pages to sell it for 2995 or 432 00:22:46,470 --> 00:22:42,580 what-have-you but it was very unusual in 433 00:22:47,940 --> 00:22:46,480 that the the book was being sold on the 434 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:47,950 the street 435 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:51,250 but I believe the the group that is a 436 00:22:58,100 --> 00:22:55,690 part of Louis Farrakhan's organization 437 00:23:03,330 --> 00:22:58,110 been through this offensive vicious lon 438 00:23:07,530 --> 00:23:03,340 no it's no Ino realm I behold the pale 439 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:07,540 horse the book is it's true that the 440 00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:09,970 whole of Paris is why we read among the 441 00:23:15,780 --> 00:23:12,910 Nation of Islam is true it is yes as a 442 00:23:18,750 --> 00:23:15,790 definite rule and yes that indeed many 443 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:18,760 men and you know you know people are 444 00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:20,410 familiar with this material probably 445 00:23:26,550 --> 00:23:24,790 know who Ralph all right let me 446 00:23:27,690 --> 00:23:26,560 gentlemen let me let me in a little bit 447 00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:27,700 let me interrupt you here because we 448 00:23:30,630 --> 00:23:29,440 have to go to our bottom of the hour 449 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:30,640 break when we come back we'll continue 450 00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:33,010 our conversation on exploring the 451 00:23:41,670 --> 00:23:39,130 bizarre 62 now back to exploring the 452 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:41,680 bizarre with two of the most 453 00:23:47,820 --> 00:23:44,050 electrifying researchers in the paranoid 454 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:47,830 your hosts Timothy beckoning panting 455 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:52,930 Swift's and welcome back to exploring 456 00:23:58,890 --> 00:23:56,170 the bizarre I'm Tim sports and Tim we're 457 00:24:01,110 --> 00:23:58,900 gonna bring Steve Erdman into the 458 00:24:04,170 --> 00:24:01,120 conversation now so Steve how you doing 459 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:04,180 tonight alright alright thank you for 460 00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:07,090 being with us now I had no idea when I 461 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:11,110 set you up to to be a guest on tonight's 462 00:24:18,090 --> 00:24:14,770 show that you and Tim Beckley have known 463 00:24:22,170 --> 00:24:18,100 each other as as long as you have why 464 00:24:25,980 --> 00:24:22,180 don't you tell us about your your early 465 00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:25,990 days being involved in all this well I 466 00:24:31,460 --> 00:24:28,390 guess that goes back to the age of 15 467 00:24:34,770 --> 00:24:31,470 hmm when I had a UFO sighting and it was 468 00:24:37,020 --> 00:24:34,780 what I would call an unmistakable UFO I 469 00:24:41,190 --> 00:24:37,030 know I've gotten into base with various 470 00:24:43,620 --> 00:24:41,200 friends about what it was and once you 471 00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:43,630 have encountered you had a UFO 472 00:24:49,890 --> 00:24:47,310 experience mine was only a sighting I 473 00:24:53,450 --> 00:24:49,900 don't know I don't have no blackouts or 474 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:53,460 anything but it was unmistakable and 475 00:24:58,860 --> 00:24:56,890 that was at body age of 15 in fact I 476 00:25:01,710 --> 00:24:58,870 don't know if you remember Steve Reeves 477 00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:01,720 a muscle man they use Amelia 478 00:25:08,909 --> 00:25:04,240 we had gone down to the Fox Theater 479 00:25:10,830 --> 00:25:08,919 uptown and I and two other three other 480 00:25:13,980 --> 00:25:10,840 teenagers one was the next earners in 481 00:25:16,110 --> 00:25:13,990 the neighbors and as it was we decided 482 00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:16,120 to walk and wait for the bus you know at 483 00:25:20,850 --> 00:25:18,370 the same time and of course the bus came 484 00:25:22,169 --> 00:25:20,860 by and we we let it pass us up and I 485 00:25:24,419 --> 00:25:22,179 kept walking and walking 486 00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:24,429 we did that with two or three buses and 487 00:25:32,460 --> 00:25:26,769 we found that we had walked all the way 488 00:25:35,490 --> 00:25:32,470 from Uptown st. Louis to where I lived 489 00:25:36,779 --> 00:25:35,500 and my buddies trailed off various 490 00:25:39,779 --> 00:25:36,789 straights and the next-door neighbor 491 00:25:44,399 --> 00:25:39,789 went in and I we were living in a 492 00:25:47,129 --> 00:25:44,409 Siamese duplex I had a hallway and it 493 00:25:49,169 --> 00:25:47,139 was well after midnight and I walked 494 00:25:51,450 --> 00:25:49,179 down the gangway and I saw the moon 495 00:25:53,850 --> 00:25:51,460 there was a we had two oak tree just on 496 00:25:55,740 --> 00:25:53,860 the other side the gate and this there 497 00:25:58,830 --> 00:25:55,750 was just what I thought was a bright 498 00:26:00,690 --> 00:25:58,840 moon and I unlatch the gate and I 499 00:26:03,539 --> 00:26:00,700 started to walk to the back porch and I 500 00:26:05,549 --> 00:26:03,549 was going to the back door and I said 501 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:05,559 I'll take a look at the moon it's awful 502 00:26:12,690 --> 00:26:10,450 bright well it wasn't the moon and I 503 00:26:16,769 --> 00:26:12,700 just stood there petrified for a minute 504 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:16,779 and you're you don't your mind doesn't 505 00:26:22,470 --> 00:26:19,690 register you know you're not thinking 506 00:26:25,710 --> 00:26:22,480 about UFOs or flying saucers anything 507 00:26:28,499 --> 00:26:25,720 and it's like what is this huge look 508 00:26:31,919 --> 00:26:28,509 like a snow white brilliant blue white 509 00:26:33,299 --> 00:26:31,929 dove swept back appearances well you 510 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:33,309 know what's going on here 511 00:26:39,180 --> 00:26:36,850 and the odd to begin to a shimmer and 512 00:26:42,269 --> 00:26:39,190 Shake and and all of a sudden begin it 513 00:26:44,610 --> 00:26:42,279 got into a globular shape and start 514 00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:44,620 spinning and it just took off went 515 00:26:50,460 --> 00:26:47,110 straight up in a matter of a second or 516 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:50,470 two and it was gone mm-hmm and I sat 517 00:26:54,860 --> 00:26:51,970 there in a backboard saying well what 518 00:26:59,970 --> 00:26:54,870 just happened what what did I just see 519 00:27:01,529 --> 00:26:59,980 and of course that it's when you when 520 00:27:04,350 --> 00:27:01,539 you see experienced something like this 521 00:27:08,490 --> 00:27:04,360 it's it's not it kind of owns the night 522 00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:08,500 it's like this is very unreal what I'm 523 00:27:13,690 --> 00:27:11,710 saying isn't normal and it kind of just 524 00:27:16,150 --> 00:27:13,700 possessed me 525 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:16,160 well that was unmistakable what I would 526 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:19,490 call UFO and you get feeling you get 527 00:27:24,670 --> 00:27:21,290 very strange feelings when you see 528 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:24,680 something like this you feel like you're 529 00:27:31,660 --> 00:27:26,690 looking at another reality for a split 530 00:27:33,670 --> 00:27:31,670 second and of course over the years this 531 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:33,680 started my interest off and I started 532 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:36,410 reading various publications one was Tim 533 00:27:41,230 --> 00:27:38,450 and I start writing on the topic back 534 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:41,240 then and I think but I don't know 535 00:27:45,460 --> 00:27:43,490 exactly how old we were back there to 536 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:45,470 him I guess about eventually when we 537 00:27:49,060 --> 00:27:48,170 start I start writing for you and other 538 00:27:52,510 --> 00:27:49,070 publications 539 00:27:56,950 --> 00:27:52,520 I guess about 17 years of age I can't 540 00:27:59,470 --> 00:27:56,960 exactly pinpoint it anymore but then I 541 00:28:02,050 --> 00:27:59,480 put my own publication out called the 542 00:28:05,260 --> 00:28:02,060 center disinterred and it was about 543 00:28:08,550 --> 00:28:05,270 conspiracies and things and UFOs and 544 00:28:12,730 --> 00:28:08,560 various well I guess we would call 545 00:28:14,290 --> 00:28:12,740 revolutionary ideas then and I was back 546 00:28:17,980 --> 00:28:14,300 in the Vietnam War 547 00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:17,990 well let me let me let me ask you for 548 00:28:27,850 --> 00:28:23,510 our listeners who maybe aren't enough to 549 00:28:31,810 --> 00:28:27,860 remember a pre-internet how did you come 550 00:28:36,550 --> 00:28:31,820 across your information to to put in 551 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:36,560 your newsletters I guess a library and 552 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:39,290 in publications you know like Tim's and 553 00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:43,850 different publications and what we 554 00:28:50,170 --> 00:28:47,510 swapped newsletters and remember see we 555 00:28:55,390 --> 00:28:50,180 used to send out like letters and made 556 00:28:58,450 --> 00:28:55,400 seven carbons of them yeah you'd have a 557 00:29:00,850 --> 00:28:58,460 hard time reading it but and then once a 558 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:00,860 while the conference call but basically 559 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:04,330 carbon paper was the Internet of the day 560 00:29:08,530 --> 00:29:06,770 well now you know what I was younger I 561 00:29:11,530 --> 00:29:08,540 used to subscribe to a couple of 562 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:11,540 newspaper clipping services now did you 563 00:29:17,890 --> 00:29:14,650 use anything like that yeah there was a 564 00:29:21,250 --> 00:29:17,900 Lou Fairy shadek a clipping service you 565 00:29:25,020 --> 00:29:21,260 could purchase and he of course Lou Lou 566 00:29:29,810 --> 00:29:27,470 collector of em for me 567 00:29:32,810 --> 00:29:29,820 you remember I think he had a file on 568 00:29:35,620 --> 00:29:32,820 the airship mystery around the turn of 569 00:29:39,260 --> 00:29:35,630 the century remember the airships in 570 00:29:42,740 --> 00:29:39,270 1896 or so you know a large file on that 571 00:29:44,930 --> 00:29:42,750 and I had a friend mr. Davis wrote he 572 00:29:47,540 --> 00:29:44,940 was into astronomy but then it began to 573 00:29:49,430 --> 00:29:47,550 get interested in UFOs and collecting 574 00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:49,440 information and he had a he had 575 00:29:55,910 --> 00:29:52,110 purchased that from Lou Farish the file 576 00:29:58,700 --> 00:29:55,920 on the airships and of course we had 577 00:30:00,830 --> 00:29:58,710 correspond with Jerome Clark remembered 578 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:00,840 Roy yeah he's been he's been on the show 579 00:30:05,150 --> 00:30:03,330 a couple times yeah oh yeah yeah yeah 580 00:30:08,450 --> 00:30:05,160 well they were we kind of had our own 581 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:08,460 little community back then you know and 582 00:30:13,730 --> 00:30:11,490 we kept in touch with each other and one 583 00:30:15,410 --> 00:30:13,740 thing led to the other and then through 584 00:30:17,090 --> 00:30:15,420 Dave and a few other people we found 585 00:30:19,820 --> 00:30:17,100 that there was a lot of people 586 00:30:22,490 --> 00:30:19,830 interested in UFOs in st. Louis and some 587 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:22,500 of them were engineers and one we got 588 00:30:30,410 --> 00:30:25,890 together with his once engineer John 589 00:30:33,260 --> 00:30:30,420 Schuessler you know John yeah and he 590 00:30:35,210 --> 00:30:33,270 became the president it was up in my 591 00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:35,220 apartment in the front room 592 00:30:41,180 --> 00:30:37,910 we all discussed and and we wrote up a 593 00:30:43,430 --> 00:30:41,190 news flyer we put out and we all decided 594 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:43,440 well we come on organization here and 595 00:30:50,870 --> 00:30:46,410 John was a president the UFO study group 596 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:50,880 of greater st. Louis and then one of our 597 00:30:55,370 --> 00:30:52,890 members although he wasn't a founding 598 00:31:00,320 --> 00:30:55,380 member was Walt Andrus you know Walt 599 00:31:02,030 --> 00:31:00,330 Walt Andrews the founder of MUFON you 600 00:31:05,060 --> 00:31:02,040 know of course John moved over to there 601 00:31:06,860 --> 00:31:05,070 our group eventually kind of I got away 602 00:31:09,890 --> 00:31:06,870 from it when I was hit with a divorce 603 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:09,900 and you know a divorce in America is an 604 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:13,050 ugly thing with lawyers and those nasty 605 00:31:20,330 --> 00:31:15,570 creatures and in alimony and all stuff 606 00:31:22,820 --> 00:31:20,340 like that and I started get back into 607 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:22,830 the UFO picture again about set in the 608 00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:25,530 70s and I wrote a few articles like 609 00:31:29,780 --> 00:31:28,080 probe beyond only I think I wrote two 610 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:29,790 articles for him one was on two yooba 611 00:31:35,570 --> 00:31:32,730 dooba magnesium fragments oh that's a 612 00:31:38,630 --> 00:31:35,580 great case yeah yeah and I think they've 613 00:31:42,890 --> 00:31:38,640 actually a Sturrock 614 00:31:45,710 --> 00:31:42,900 I forget his first name Sturrock kept on 615 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:45,720 that case and I think they're coming up 616 00:31:50,180 --> 00:31:48,090 with some new revelations there they 617 00:31:53,150 --> 00:31:50,190 looked into some of these fragments and 618 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:53,160 the Pentagon they're storing and they 619 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:55,290 found I think that yooba dooba fragment 620 00:32:00,820 --> 00:31:56,970 what remained of it they found some more 621 00:32:08,470 --> 00:32:06,860 David Marlar of the UM of he's got a his 622 00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:08,480 archives have been purchased by a 623 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:12,960 university and we had a meeting with him 624 00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:14,610 just recently and he said they've 625 00:32:19,130 --> 00:32:17,760 they're historic and his companions are 626 00:32:22,159 --> 00:32:19,140 going to come out with some new findings 627 00:32:24,909 --> 00:32:22,169 on he's what they call a pair of medals 628 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:24,919 they had in storage in the Pentagon and 629 00:32:29,299 --> 00:32:27,570 he said that sometime the mill the years 630 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:29,309 are going to come out some astounding 631 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:32,370 information but you know that gets into 632 00:32:38,780 --> 00:32:35,610 the nature of UFOs what exactly UFOs are 633 00:32:40,940 --> 00:32:38,790 and I I don't think there's one source 634 00:32:44,980 --> 00:32:40,950 for the UFOs I think there's a number of 635 00:32:49,610 --> 00:32:44,990 things going on it's a multi causal 636 00:32:50,690 --> 00:32:49,620 phenomena that ranges from one end of 637 00:32:52,909 --> 00:32:50,700 the scale to the other 638 00:32:56,390 --> 00:32:52,919 I think there's black projects I think 639 00:32:57,770 --> 00:32:56,400 we got UFOs of our own the the legend 640 00:33:01,720 --> 00:32:57,780 goes yet we've gotten some of this 641 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:01,730 knowledge from extraterrestrials but 642 00:33:08,270 --> 00:33:05,370 where you draw the line at between the 643 00:33:11,950 --> 00:33:08,280 different causes there's obviously a 644 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:11,960 piercing psychological aspect to it all 645 00:33:20,030 --> 00:33:15,570 and because it's all it's all contained 646 00:33:23,750 --> 00:33:20,040 in hidden organizations black operations 647 00:33:26,210 --> 00:33:23,760 secret or groups you don't get a good 648 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:26,220 picture of it it's to piecemeal you know 649 00:33:33,669 --> 00:33:29,730 you don't get an idea where one end 650 00:33:41,180 --> 00:33:38,450 we I think back in 73 sometime around 651 00:33:44,510 --> 00:33:41,190 then the study group got involved with 652 00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:44,520 cattle mutilation up in Ellsbury 653 00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:48,809 Missouri you remember him oh yeah Chris 654 00:33:55,470 --> 00:33:52,510 O'Brien on the wedding a week or two 655 00:34:01,920 --> 00:33:55,480 a text next week him and morale high 656 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:01,930 power that's gonna be a great show back 657 00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:05,170 then the ketamine relation wasn't was 658 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:07,840 inner internet eyes you know and we had 659 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:10,930 gone up there to investigate the the 660 00:34:16,500 --> 00:34:13,890 situation and took a team up there and 661 00:34:21,270 --> 00:34:16,510 went and looked at the cows and all this 662 00:34:22,830 --> 00:34:21,280 and but consequently after that I got 663 00:34:24,810 --> 00:34:22,840 really interested in it and I got in 664 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:24,820 some clipping services nicer Billy a 665 00:34:31,890 --> 00:34:28,210 file on cattle me you men mentioned men 666 00:34:35,460 --> 00:34:31,900 you remember Tom Adams oh yeah yeah sure 667 00:34:38,190 --> 00:34:35,470 yeah delay he put yeah he had he put out 668 00:34:41,940 --> 00:34:38,200 a newsletter or was it stigmata or 669 00:34:43,950 --> 00:34:41,950 something yeah well he sent me a lot of 670 00:34:46,410 --> 00:34:43,960 photographs and clippings and I start 671 00:34:49,130 --> 00:34:46,420 were setting out we invented a 672 00:34:52,470 --> 00:34:49,140 subcommittee of a study group the 673 00:34:53,940 --> 00:34:52,480 National animal mutilation group and we 674 00:34:56,370 --> 00:34:53,950 sent out questionnaires at different 675 00:34:59,700 --> 00:34:56,380 farmers and sheriffs and I start 676 00:35:02,790 --> 00:34:59,710 building up a nice little file and I 677 00:35:05,190 --> 00:35:02,800 recently wrote an article for UFO digest 678 00:35:08,910 --> 00:35:05,200 on on the some of those files which 679 00:35:11,130 --> 00:35:08,920 remained here in my garage but we went 680 00:35:13,650 --> 00:35:11,140 up there on Sky with Sky Watch trips and 681 00:35:18,060 --> 00:35:13,660 him I don't know if you'd know a Barbara 682 00:35:21,150 --> 00:35:18,070 Becker she's part of MUFON mmm goodbye 683 00:35:24,090 --> 00:35:21,160 I'm not - I'm not too big on the the 684 00:35:26,850 --> 00:35:24,100 MUFON crowd I've I've never been a 685 00:35:29,340 --> 00:35:26,860 member and a couple of times I've had 686 00:35:34,580 --> 00:35:29,350 some kind of harsh dealings with the 687 00:35:42,060 --> 00:35:36,270 well-characterized them in any 688 00:35:44,310 --> 00:35:42,070 particular way to me really I know for a 689 00:35:46,770 --> 00:35:44,320 long time they were very what we would 690 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:46,780 call nuts and bolts you know spaceships 691 00:35:52,260 --> 00:35:51,010 and nothing paranormal but now now I see 692 00:35:56,220 --> 00:35:52,270 wouldn't you say it's different because 693 00:35:59,220 --> 00:35:56,230 each of the of the subcommittee's or 694 00:36:01,320 --> 00:35:59,230 local organizations seem to have the 695 00:36:03,089 --> 00:36:01,330 right to to believe in pretty much what 696 00:36:04,890 --> 00:36:03,099 they want 697 00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:04,900 well I just think people are getting 698 00:36:10,650 --> 00:36:06,609 more progressive and they're thinking 699 00:36:14,249 --> 00:36:10,660 and as parapsychology is getting be more 700 00:36:16,620 --> 00:36:14,259 of a science in fact there was a book 701 00:36:21,079 --> 00:36:16,630 I'm reviewing it now for different 702 00:36:24,630 --> 00:36:21,089 publications by Robbie Graham and it's 703 00:36:28,529 --> 00:36:24,640 it's called reframing UFOs the debate 704 00:36:31,229 --> 00:36:28,539 and it's a bunch of fourteen essays by 705 00:36:38,190 --> 00:36:31,239 different you apologists that kind of 706 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:38,200 point out the the faults or the some of 707 00:36:44,460 --> 00:36:39,729 the miss thinking that people have 708 00:36:47,099 --> 00:36:44,470 gotten over UFOs and the ETH theory has 709 00:36:49,259 --> 00:36:47,109 always been kind of a standard well you 710 00:36:51,989 --> 00:36:49,269 know and since they can't prove we're 711 00:36:53,969 --> 00:36:51,999 being visited by extraterrestrials it's 712 00:36:55,410 --> 00:36:53,979 you know they don't get the concrete 713 00:36:59,190 --> 00:36:55,420 proof they want they just kind of 714 00:37:01,739 --> 00:36:59,200 dismiss it but these these SAS kind of 715 00:37:04,229 --> 00:37:01,749 believe we're not we're not thinking 716 00:37:05,999 --> 00:37:04,239 we're not asking the right questions and 717 00:37:08,729 --> 00:37:06,009 if you don't ask the right questions you 718 00:37:10,529 --> 00:37:08,739 won't get any good answers the 719 00:37:14,039 --> 00:37:10,539 extra-terrestrial theory is interesting 720 00:37:16,739 --> 00:37:14,049 it may if here's the thing we don't we 721 00:37:22,709 --> 00:37:16,749 you know we're kind of using very 722 00:37:24,870 --> 00:37:22,719 parochial thinking first of all you ask 723 00:37:27,479 --> 00:37:24,880 you know what kind of it what kind of a 724 00:37:29,729 --> 00:37:27,489 extra Crusher would travel light-years 725 00:37:32,219 --> 00:37:29,739 that come here and even have that 726 00:37:35,519 --> 00:37:32,229 capability and then come here just to do 727 00:37:38,489 --> 00:37:35,529 silly things antics yeah yeah yeah very 728 00:37:41,009 --> 00:37:38,499 silly and not even talk to you you know 729 00:37:43,380 --> 00:37:41,019 what was the point and honey was 730 00:37:45,059 --> 00:37:43,390 starting to get away from that you know 731 00:37:47,039 --> 00:37:45,069 he started out thinking well he was a 732 00:37:50,009 --> 00:37:47,049 skeptic and then after a while they said 733 00:37:51,779 --> 00:37:50,019 well you know we want to see if there's 734 00:37:53,459 --> 00:37:51,789 something to the spaceship theory you 735 00:37:56,729 --> 00:37:53,469 know we want you to look into it and 736 00:37:59,900 --> 00:37:56,739 help us and after a while and I wrote an 737 00:38:02,759 --> 00:37:59,910 article on this too after a while he 738 00:38:04,950 --> 00:38:02,769 started getting away from the nuts and 739 00:38:07,380 --> 00:38:04,960 bolts theory saying Hume the way the way 740 00:38:08,999 --> 00:38:07,390 these things act you know when you 741 00:38:12,599 --> 00:38:09,009 investigate him you talk to people 742 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:12,609 there's other things going on besides of 743 00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:15,249 metal spaceships if they are metal 744 00:38:19,050 --> 00:38:16,510 spaceships the 745 00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:19,060 sure they had you're using a magic 746 00:38:22,980 --> 00:38:21,310 technology because they can do things 747 00:38:25,770 --> 00:38:22,990 they're only like an apparition or 748 00:38:28,740 --> 00:38:25,780 ghosts can do and they sometimes they 749 00:38:31,140 --> 00:38:28,750 act like ghosts or apparitions so it 750 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:31,150 kind of that would make anybody begin to 751 00:38:37,140 --> 00:38:33,490 question you know what are we dealing 752 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:37,150 with you know now you know spaceships 753 00:38:43,710 --> 00:38:40,570 that's a nice idea but it's just an idea 754 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:43,720 and it doesn't fit all the facts well 755 00:38:49,650 --> 00:38:46,810 you know my feeling on this is and of 756 00:38:53,510 --> 00:38:49,660 course I I think that I have some 757 00:38:57,180 --> 00:38:53,520 evidence for this is that you know the 758 00:39:01,410 --> 00:38:57,190 US government bought all these Nazi 759 00:39:04,590 --> 00:39:01,420 scientists and engineers over over after 760 00:39:08,340 --> 00:39:04,600 the wars part of Project Paperclip and 761 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:08,350 as we know as we know the the Germans 762 00:39:13,140 --> 00:39:11,410 were working on their own technology and 763 00:39:17,130 --> 00:39:13,150 I think it was headed in a different 764 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:17,140 direction than our rocketry program so 765 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:19,770 they bought these scientists over here 766 00:39:24,750 --> 00:39:23,410 versus our gravitons well whatever they 767 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:24,760 were doing whatever they were doing they 768 00:39:34,410 --> 00:39:31,050 technology which was separate from ours 769 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:34,420 and for some reason this technology has 770 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:37,690 been has remained a in most secret part 771 00:39:41,940 --> 00:39:39,970 of the secret space program as some 772 00:39:44,430 --> 00:39:41,950 people say and I think some of these 773 00:39:45,390 --> 00:39:44,440 early incidents like Roswell if they 774 00:39:46,890 --> 00:39:45,400 really happen 775 00:39:48,510 --> 00:39:46,900 the government would rather have you 776 00:39:50,580 --> 00:39:48,520 believe that there are extraterrestrials 777 00:39:53,870 --> 00:39:50,590 than have to admit that they were in 778 00:40:01,850 --> 00:39:53,880 collusion with the Nazis I mean that's 779 00:40:06,660 --> 00:40:04,230 yeah absolutely 780 00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:06,670 now the question is what has happened 781 00:40:11,460 --> 00:40:08,710 since then okay you got Roswell and you 782 00:40:14,220 --> 00:40:11,470 have a few of these other UFO crashes 783 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:14,230 how do you explain the the so-called 784 00:40:19,410 --> 00:40:16,930 aliens that were on onboard well I'm not 785 00:40:21,690 --> 00:40:19,420 sure there were aliens but if an object 786 00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:21,700 crashes it's easy to get a couple of 787 00:40:25,590 --> 00:40:24,250 dummies make up a couple of dummies and 788 00:40:27,210 --> 00:40:25,600 throw them in the wreckage and people 789 00:40:28,770 --> 00:40:27,220 will think that they're I mean they do 790 00:40:30,390 --> 00:40:28,780 it in Hollywood all the time I mean 791 00:40:32,130 --> 00:40:30,400 these things look pretty realistic 792 00:40:34,740 --> 00:40:32,140 so you throw a couple of dummies in the 793 00:40:36,930 --> 00:40:34,750 wreckage and and people see this the 794 00:40:39,690 --> 00:40:36,940 next day and they think well you know 795 00:40:41,340 --> 00:40:39,700 these are little green men from Mars or 796 00:40:43,410 --> 00:40:41,350 something and they they're not even 797 00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:43,420 alive you know I mean if there was 798 00:40:47,210 --> 00:40:45,730 anybody on board the craft the craft 799 00:40:49,830 --> 00:40:47,220 where they were German scientists 800 00:40:52,170 --> 00:40:49,840 scientists are not they they you know 801 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:52,180 whisk them away plus a lot of the early 802 00:40:57,270 --> 00:40:54,610 contact ESO Steve as you probably know 803 00:41:00,180 --> 00:40:57,280 they they claimed that they went on 804 00:41:01,770 --> 00:41:00,190 board these craft the the Yale so-called 805 00:41:04,140 --> 00:41:01,780 aliens the Venetians or whatever they 806 00:41:07,410 --> 00:41:04,150 were look very Aryan in appearance and 807 00:41:09,390 --> 00:41:07,420 some of them spoke in German you know 808 00:41:13,860 --> 00:41:09,400 you're getting into a very very 809 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:13,870 complicated area here because it's a lot 810 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:15,610 more it's a lot faster than a lot of 811 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:19,330 people and you there may be some sort of 812 00:41:26,370 --> 00:41:23,290 secret organization and I don't know how 813 00:41:30,180 --> 00:41:26,380 far back these groups go but the airship 814 00:41:33,510 --> 00:41:30,190 mystery they that apparently was some 815 00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:33,520 kind of invention you know and there's 816 00:41:38,430 --> 00:41:35,440 there's been articles written where the 817 00:41:40,530 --> 00:41:38,440 inventors confess one guy says yeah we 818 00:41:43,290 --> 00:41:40,540 were part of that we were I think was 819 00:41:45,690 --> 00:41:43,300 aluminum manufacturer some big said yeah 820 00:41:47,790 --> 00:41:45,700 we you know it's a part of it we keep 821 00:41:50,750 --> 00:41:47,800 that under wraps I am a member of their 822 00:41:55,010 --> 00:41:50,760 group and then there was a group in 823 00:41:59,510 --> 00:41:55,020 California that claimed to they have a 824 00:42:04,520 --> 00:41:59,520 believe paintings a catalogue and they 825 00:42:07,070 --> 00:42:04,530 they suspect that was part of this group 826 00:42:10,020 --> 00:42:07,080 Dennis Crenshaw has been on the program 827 00:42:11,670 --> 00:42:10,030 he wrote a book based on that 828 00:42:13,260 --> 00:42:11,680 organization that you're talking about I 829 00:42:15,690 --> 00:42:13,270 can't remember what the name of this is 830 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:15,700 what all my Sonoma something yeah yeah 831 00:42:20,070 --> 00:42:18,010 and they had they had these aircraft and 832 00:42:22,650 --> 00:42:20,080 this goes back but you know everything 833 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:22,660 was invented before supposedly it was 834 00:42:27,870 --> 00:42:25,210 invented I mean somebody gets the credit 835 00:42:30,150 --> 00:42:27,880 but somebody does the the research and 836 00:42:33,450 --> 00:42:30,160 puts it together and then usually it you 837 00:42:36,630 --> 00:42:33,460 know it's swiped by someone richer more 838 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:36,640 powerful and with the right contacts and 839 00:42:41,610 --> 00:42:39,610 has the know-how to you know register it 840 00:42:43,020 --> 00:42:41,620 wherever it should be registered and 841 00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:43,030 marry them but there's been 842 00:42:49,380 --> 00:42:45,730 patents of some of this stuff if you can 843 00:42:52,710 --> 00:42:49,390 find it in Congress these inventors 844 00:42:57,420 --> 00:42:52,720 actually had patents but here's the 845 00:43:00,120 --> 00:42:57,430 thing Tim it is it possible that these 846 00:43:06,350 --> 00:43:00,130 groups and organizations live beneath 847 00:43:11,910 --> 00:43:06,360 the surface the term breakaway society 848 00:43:14,490 --> 00:43:11,920 somewhere along the line we know the 849 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:14,500 Nazis found a or at least the legend 850 00:43:21,930 --> 00:43:19,210 goes a crashed UFO and a black forest it 851 00:43:23,910 --> 00:43:21,940 was really spur and then they there was 852 00:43:27,990 --> 00:43:23,920 another inspiration that the Nazis were 853 00:43:32,790 --> 00:43:28,000 operating under the the group the verbal 854 00:43:35,790 --> 00:43:32,800 were they playing they had contacted the 855 00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:35,800 entities behind the UFO so we're getting 856 00:43:44,670 --> 00:43:40,560 into a very heavy territory here that 857 00:43:48,030 --> 00:43:44,680 there was a super science operating 858 00:43:53,010 --> 00:43:48,040 behind the scenes it involved the UFOs 859 00:43:57,090 --> 00:43:53,020 it involved contact with the the extra 860 00:43:58,320 --> 00:43:57,100 extra curricular denizens and whatever 861 00:44:00,750 --> 00:43:58,330 you want to call them whatever you want 862 00:44:04,830 --> 00:44:00,760 to name them all the terrestrials I call 863 00:44:08,850 --> 00:44:04,840 them myself yeah okay this super science 864 00:44:14,370 --> 00:44:08,860 is set them on the road to singularity 865 00:44:18,050 --> 00:44:14,380 they're well advanced far people do you 866 00:44:21,510 --> 00:44:18,060 mean by singularity AI intelligence 867 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:21,520 where was it but that's the point at 868 00:44:25,590 --> 00:44:23,410 which they are intelligence and Mary so 869 00:44:27,690 --> 00:44:25,600 in compton together everything comes 870 00:44:29,010 --> 00:44:27,700 together yeah but I'm just you know I've 871 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:29,020 heard the word a million times but 872 00:44:34,250 --> 00:44:31,090 everybody has their own definition you 873 00:44:36,330 --> 00:44:34,260 know yeah and are the science like 874 00:44:39,090 --> 00:44:36,340 National Aeronautics and Space 875 00:44:43,590 --> 00:44:39,100 Administration what they call a phony 876 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:43,600 space program and von Braun was a party 877 00:44:49,500 --> 00:44:45,610 of that but they say von Braun knew a 878 00:44:51,510 --> 00:44:49,510 lot more than he let on been you know 879 00:44:54,540 --> 00:44:51,520 been rich kind of Lutz to this secret 880 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:54,550 society he says we have the technology 881 00:44:58,829 --> 00:44:56,410 to go to the stars 882 00:45:02,339 --> 00:44:58,839 we already have that how long have they 883 00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:02,349 had this and why all this phony stuff 884 00:45:07,859 --> 00:45:04,960 about oh we've been to the moon you know 885 00:45:11,279 --> 00:45:07,869 we got a that that's appears to be 886 00:45:14,370 --> 00:45:11,289 archaic a technology when there's a 887 00:45:16,859 --> 00:45:14,380 secret to technology it was passed on 888 00:45:21,029 --> 00:45:16,869 down through the centuries through the 889 00:45:23,910 --> 00:45:21,039 not the the Reich and they say there's 890 00:45:26,029 --> 00:45:23,920 now a Fourth Reich in operation I mean 891 00:45:32,759 --> 00:45:26,039 they had all these Nazis all over the 892 00:45:35,849 --> 00:45:32,769 good the Third Reich never died it just 893 00:45:38,249 --> 00:45:35,859 turned into a Fourth Reich Jim Marrs too 894 00:45:39,210 --> 00:45:38,259 talked about that might one of my 895 00:45:42,660 --> 00:45:39,220 favorite authors 896 00:45:44,730 --> 00:45:42,670 Joseph P Thoreau wrote on it oh yeah the 897 00:45:47,849 --> 00:45:44,740 enemy that he said he called it enemy 898 00:45:50,220 --> 00:45:47,859 that's everywhere and nowhere we know 899 00:45:53,039 --> 00:45:50,230 about the Nazis they got into this it 900 00:45:54,839 --> 00:45:53,049 got the CIA off kicked and running we 901 00:45:56,910 --> 00:45:54,849 know how the Nazis got into things like 902 00:45:59,759 --> 00:45:56,920 the Warren Commission and the Kennedy 903 00:46:01,799 --> 00:45:59,769 assassination well now one of the things 904 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:01,809 about Virginia of the famous files of J 905 00:46:06,450 --> 00:46:04,210 Edgar Hoover the ones the files that he 906 00:46:09,089 --> 00:46:06,460 had that kept him in office all those 907 00:46:11,490 --> 00:46:09,099 years because every single one almost 908 00:46:13,109 --> 00:46:11,500 every single major American corporation 909 00:46:14,940 --> 00:46:13,119 was doing business with the Nazis 910 00:46:16,529 --> 00:46:14,950 because they didn't know who was gonna 911 00:46:19,319 --> 00:46:16,539 win the war so they were playing both 912 00:46:22,289 --> 00:46:19,329 sides against the middle so and Hoover 913 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:22,299 had all that stuff so then I'm sure the 914 00:46:27,569 --> 00:46:24,490 Aeronautics me and you know companies 915 00:46:30,029 --> 00:46:27,579 were also involved and he just kept him 916 00:46:31,650 --> 00:46:30,039 in his files that's why you know he was 917 00:46:33,660 --> 00:46:31,660 people who people would attempt to make 918 00:46:35,339 --> 00:46:33,670 a Power Move and he was a well aren't 919 00:46:37,019 --> 00:46:35,349 you the guys that were doing that stuff 920 00:46:39,210 --> 00:46:37,029 with Rajee Falls and or something like 921 00:46:40,710 --> 00:46:39,220 that we still like you Noah yeah and 922 00:46:42,809 --> 00:46:40,720 then they'd shut up and that would be 923 00:46:45,660 --> 00:46:42,819 that was part of Jay Cooper's power 924 00:46:47,220 --> 00:46:45,670 actually well here's another switch is 925 00:46:49,319 --> 00:46:47,230 what you're saying what you're saying is 926 00:46:51,410 --> 00:46:49,329 you know there's some gold D to it I 927 00:46:54,630 --> 00:46:51,420 think yeah here's another sticking point 928 00:46:57,630 --> 00:46:54,640 when we talk about Nazism we're talking 929 00:46:59,789 --> 00:46:57,640 really about fascism and and the German 930 00:47:04,109 --> 00:46:59,799 people or and Hitler weren't owners of 931 00:47:07,140 --> 00:47:04,119 fascism who put another who put Hitler 932 00:47:08,089 --> 00:47:07,150 of the power ya know who put Hitler into 933 00:47:09,300 --> 00:47:08,099 power 934 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:09,310 America 935 00:47:20,010 --> 00:47:18,010 JPMorgan they are gentle gentlemen I'm 936 00:47:21,420 --> 00:47:20,020 gonna have to stop you here because we 937 00:47:23,250 --> 00:47:21,430 are coming up to our top of the hour 938 00:47:25,500 --> 00:47:23,260 break when we come back we'll continue 939 00:47:28,020 --> 00:47:25,510 our conversation with Steve and Mark 940 00:47:30,570 --> 00:47:28,030 about UFOs and all kinds of weird 941 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:30,580 conspiracies on exploring the bazaars 942 00:47:36,170 --> 00:47:39,979 [Music] 943 00:47:46,940 --> 00:47:44,489 explode the bazaars or e-ticket ride 944 00:47:50,219 --> 00:47:46,950 into the world of the paranoid 945 00:47:54,529 --> 00:47:50,229 strap yourself in as we traverse the 946 00:47:57,650 --> 00:47:54,539 universe exploring the unexplained UFO s 947 00:48:00,029 --> 00:47:57,660 ghosts lost world 948 00:48:03,870 --> 00:48:00,039 cryptozoology waters as well as other 949 00:48:09,029 --> 00:48:03,880 dimensions it's time to take back the 950 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:09,039 night now your electrifying hosts of 951 00:48:19,499 --> 00:48:12,130 exploring the bizarre Timothy Begley and 952 00:48:21,690 --> 00:48:19,509 team sports welcome back to the second 953 00:48:25,349 --> 00:48:21,700 hour of exploring the bizarre tonight 954 00:48:30,660 --> 00:48:25,359 we're talking with Steve Erdman and mark 955 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:30,670 Jacobson and mark I had told you during 956 00:48:39,329 --> 00:48:35,650 the break that I first ran across bill 957 00:48:44,180 --> 00:48:39,339 Cooper back in the very very early days 958 00:48:47,729 --> 00:48:44,190 of the the internet on copy serves a 959 00:48:53,729 --> 00:48:47,739 perronnette where I think it was Bill 960 00:48:57,089 --> 00:48:53,739 and Oh John Lear they yeah they they 961 00:48:59,579 --> 00:48:57,099 they dominated you know the the bulletin 962 00:49:00,870 --> 00:48:59,589 boards you know with there they seem to 963 00:49:03,509 --> 00:49:00,880 be you know like you're trying to outdo 964 00:49:07,609 --> 00:49:03,519 each other with more and more kind of 965 00:49:12,749 --> 00:49:07,619 outlandish in my opinion a UFO stories 966 00:49:17,839 --> 00:49:12,759 but you know at some point bill I guess 967 00:49:21,660 --> 00:49:17,849 he he kind of made a left-hand turn and 968 00:49:25,189 --> 00:49:21,670 decided that all this UFO stuff was was 969 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:25,199 nonsense and started to become more of a 970 00:49:32,099 --> 00:49:28,890 really kind of a hard-line conspiracist 971 00:49:34,380 --> 00:49:32,109 well I think that that's accurate be 972 00:49:39,359 --> 00:49:34,390 sure I know there were certain reasons 973 00:49:41,489 --> 00:49:39,369 why Cooper left the UFO field I mean you 974 00:49:43,380 --> 00:49:41,499 know Lehrer was the inventor of all that 975 00:49:47,130 --> 00:49:43,390 kind of hypothesis I mean there's that 976 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:47,140 fantastic stuff that later became mj-12 977 00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:49,690 and all that other stuff that became 978 00:49:54,660 --> 00:49:51,730 really dominated but you 979 00:49:57,750 --> 00:49:54,670 oh saying during the late 1980s for sure 980 00:50:01,980 --> 00:49:57,760 and which is going to kind of like right 981 00:50:06,330 --> 00:50:01,990 into the that you know when when area51 982 00:50:09,450 --> 00:50:06,340 came online so to speak as a topic of 983 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:09,460 UFO conversation by the way I was 984 00:50:13,770 --> 00:50:11,410 wondering that and people out there in 985 00:50:16,740 --> 00:50:13,780 the audience and and you guys there have 986 00:50:20,460 --> 00:50:16,750 you seen this um Bob with new what new 987 00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:20,470 Bob Lazar movie its actors that made 988 00:50:24,690 --> 00:50:22,570 this Bob movie Bob Bob Lazar Oh Bob 989 00:50:27,930 --> 00:50:24,700 Lazar and Ryan everybody knows Bob 990 00:50:30,750 --> 00:50:27,940 Saurez and I think it's I saw some it 991 00:50:32,490 --> 00:50:30,760 was I don't know the veracity quotient 992 00:50:34,349 --> 00:50:32,500 I'm not going to write them I don't know 993 00:50:36,690 --> 00:50:34,359 it look great it really looked like a 994 00:50:39,599 --> 00:50:36,700 pro job you know and something worth 995 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:39,609 seeing but I mean to get back to Cooper 996 00:50:45,750 --> 00:50:41,770 I'm you know he just created so many 997 00:50:47,490 --> 00:50:45,760 enemies I mean we're liriko liriko I but 998 00:50:50,910 --> 00:50:47,500 I spent a whole couple days with zhongli 999 00:50:52,859 --> 00:50:50,920 or have a fantastic time is is a house 1000 00:50:54,990 --> 00:50:52,869 is just the greatest thing you ever saw 1001 00:50:57,300 --> 00:50:55,000 he's got every one because he was a 1002 00:51:00,150 --> 00:50:57,310 really famous flier his father was the 1003 00:51:02,099 --> 00:51:00,160 inventor of the Learjet and he at one 1004 00:51:05,609 --> 00:51:02,109 time held the world's record for flying 1005 00:51:07,770 --> 00:51:05,619 around the world you know not solo but 1006 00:51:09,540 --> 00:51:07,780 well you know he and he flew around the 1007 00:51:11,820 --> 00:51:09,550 world in a Learjet in for a long time 1008 00:51:14,340 --> 00:51:11,830 held the record for circumnavigating the 1009 00:51:16,590 --> 00:51:14,350 globe so he's a kind of an interesting 1010 00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:16,600 guy in a lot of ways but he meant did a 1011 00:51:20,730 --> 00:51:18,250 lot of this stuff and then Cooper came 1012 00:51:23,430 --> 00:51:20,740 out of the woodwork completely really 1013 00:51:24,660 --> 00:51:23,440 out of nowhere and said I can back up 1014 00:51:28,130 --> 00:51:24,670 everything you're saying 1015 00:51:30,900 --> 00:51:28,140 hmm you know originally it was 50% and 1016 00:51:32,730 --> 00:51:30,910 then that's weird told me says why would 1017 00:51:35,700 --> 00:51:32,740 the only first contacted me so he could 1018 00:51:38,580 --> 00:51:35,710 back up earlier told me that none of the 1019 00:51:40,020 --> 00:51:38,590 stuff that he actually was saying was 1020 00:51:42,060 --> 00:51:40,030 anything he actually believed that's 1021 00:51:45,390 --> 00:51:42,070 what he called it a hypothesis it might 1022 00:51:47,670 --> 00:51:45,400 be true and and and then Cooper came 1023 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:47,680 around and was the one that said this 1024 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:49,330 not only white might be true but it is 1025 00:51:54,420 --> 00:51:51,850 true because I saw all this stuff when I 1026 00:51:57,300 --> 00:51:54,430 was in naval intelligence and you know 1027 00:52:00,300 --> 00:51:57,310 that was like a big kind of movement and 1028 00:52:02,700 --> 00:52:00,310 then Cooper became you know I guess you 1029 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:02,710 guys were there but even when Canada 1030 00:52:05,070 --> 00:52:04,330 sort of came out of nowhere and became 1031 00:52:07,740 --> 00:52:05,080 one of the 1032 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:07,750 best known people in the UFO field in 1033 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:10,570 fact when I went to the MUFON convention 1034 00:52:17,010 --> 00:52:14,530 I think the 2014 Cooper became such a 1035 00:52:20,850 --> 00:52:17,020 halyard figure in the in the UFO field 1036 00:52:23,610 --> 00:52:20,860 then like this is already like more than 1037 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:23,620 20 years later after he was in there 1038 00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:26,610 when his name came up the audience booed 1039 00:52:32,820 --> 00:52:30,730 dead for 15 years right and people 1040 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:32,830 remember remember how much they hated 1041 00:52:39,390 --> 00:52:34,770 him I don't know if it was all 1042 00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:39,400 necessarily you know deserved but you 1043 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:41,170 know he said a lot of he read a lot of 1044 00:52:48,110 --> 00:52:45,370 books and he Immanuel Velikovsky stuff 1045 00:52:50,610 --> 00:52:48,120 you know that that's that figured 1046 00:52:53,370 --> 00:52:50,620 heavily the Cooper's thing but and to 1047 00:52:56,570 --> 00:52:53,380 can't answer your question you know he 1048 00:52:59,340 --> 00:52:56,580 and I think Tim Beck was correct I mean 1049 00:53:00,870 --> 00:52:59,350 he kind of priced himself out of the UFO 1050 00:53:04,980 --> 00:53:00,880 market because he was asking these 1051 00:53:07,620 --> 00:53:04,990 outrageous honorariums and pieces of my 1052 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:07,630 piece of the tour and that right - you 1053 00:53:14,430 --> 00:53:10,210 know and you know I don't know too many 1054 00:53:17,190 --> 00:53:14,440 other groups that actually would book 1055 00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:17,200 him he would go out and rent a hall 1056 00:53:25,650 --> 00:53:20,770 either by himself or one of his 1057 00:53:27,510 --> 00:53:25,660 followers would would do it you know he 1058 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:27,520 I guess I don't know if I said this 1059 00:53:32,220 --> 00:53:30,010 earlier in the show he kind of lost 1060 00:53:35,670 --> 00:53:32,230 interest in the UFO saying when he 1061 00:53:38,340 --> 00:53:35,680 realized that there wasn't too much he 1062 00:53:39,660 --> 00:53:38,350 could hustle out of you know UFO or 1063 00:53:43,290 --> 00:53:39,670 groups because they didn't have a lot of 1064 00:53:47,780 --> 00:53:43,300 followers and UFO people as a rule don't 1065 00:53:52,470 --> 00:53:47,790 spend a lot of money to be a damn honest 1066 00:53:55,860 --> 00:53:52,480 true yeah here as opposed to a 1067 00:53:58,740 --> 00:53:55,870 conspiracy above sand right-wingers and 1068 00:54:01,760 --> 00:53:58,750 militia type the people who if they get 1069 00:54:05,700 --> 00:54:01,770 behind you will continue to send you 1070 00:54:09,590 --> 00:54:05,710 donations and I did talk to one of his 1071 00:54:17,460 --> 00:54:09,600 did you talk to anybody in his family 1072 00:54:18,780 --> 00:54:17,470 yeah I thought those daughters went okay 1073 00:54:22,140 --> 00:54:18,790 if they were 1074 00:54:24,359 --> 00:54:22,150 he had a couple of daughters he had two 1075 00:54:28,530 --> 00:54:24,369 daughters and a son I'd [\h__\h] all of them 1076 00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:28,540 and and I talked to I talked to several 1077 00:54:37,260 --> 00:54:34,450 of his ex-wives you know and then and 1078 00:54:41,430 --> 00:54:37,270 then I'm saying he had two daughters and 1079 00:54:44,690 --> 00:54:41,440 a son before he married the woman that 1080 00:54:47,609 --> 00:54:44,700 people who are familiar with radio show 1081 00:54:50,609 --> 00:54:47,619 no yeah and he had two more daughters 1082 00:54:52,500 --> 00:54:50,619 yep they're rich you know and I gotta 1083 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:52,510 say I mean I work on this book of that 1084 00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:54,490 little Cooper I mean what's my friends 1085 00:54:57,210 --> 00:54:55,930 thought I was out of my mind was why 1086 00:54:59,970 --> 00:54:57,220 would you waste your time writing about 1087 00:55:02,700 --> 00:54:59,980 some guy who was like so kind of like 1088 00:55:04,620 --> 00:55:02,710 you know their basketball and more or 1089 00:55:07,140 --> 00:55:04,630 less was know for not telling the truth 1090 00:55:08,910 --> 00:55:07,150 you know and making stuff up I thought 1091 00:55:11,700 --> 00:55:08,920 the stuff that he came up with was kind 1092 00:55:14,099 --> 00:55:11,710 of brilliant I mean in the context of 1093 00:55:15,750 --> 00:55:14,109 like just what Steve was talking about I 1094 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:15,760 love this idea that like there's a lot 1095 00:55:20,790 --> 00:55:18,010 of stuff out there that you just don't 1096 00:55:23,460 --> 00:55:20,800 know the answer to and maybe at one time 1097 00:55:25,340 --> 00:55:23,470 like the things like the Bible or you 1098 00:55:28,890 --> 00:55:25,350 know whatever religion you go on to 1099 00:55:31,380 --> 00:55:28,900 explained a lot of that kind of stuff to 1100 00:55:33,359 --> 00:55:31,390 your satisfaction but and then when you 1101 00:55:34,980 --> 00:55:33,369 get into the modern world and they have 1102 00:55:35,580 --> 00:55:34,990 to dilute the atom bomb and stuff like 1103 00:55:43,410 --> 00:55:35,590 that 1104 00:55:46,890 --> 00:55:43,420 too much modern stuff around me you have 1105 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:46,900 to come up with some new ways to think 1106 00:55:51,270 --> 00:55:49,330 like there's nobody wants to admit they 1107 00:55:52,470 --> 00:55:51,280 don't know what's going on you know that 1108 00:55:54,330 --> 00:55:52,480 people want to think that they know 1109 00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:54,340 what's going on you know because it 1110 00:55:58,440 --> 00:55:55,690 gives them a kind of certain kind of 1111 00:56:00,570 --> 00:55:58,450 certainty and stuff like that but um the 1112 00:56:04,109 --> 00:56:00,580 Cooper's going to tap into that and and 1113 00:56:09,109 --> 00:56:04,119 even though he was totally like a PT 1114 00:56:14,250 --> 00:56:12,120 they make some accurate he did make some 1115 00:56:18,780 --> 00:56:14,260 manner predictions I was just gonna ask 1116 00:56:21,690 --> 00:56:18,790 that yes did he know you made several 1117 00:56:23,820 --> 00:56:21,700 accurate predictions but and I'm not you 1118 00:56:25,590 --> 00:56:23,830 know I like Bill Cooper I wasn't written 1119 00:56:28,230 --> 00:56:25,600 about him do you think that he was like 1120 00:56:30,810 --> 00:56:28,240 at least like pretty uh I think he's a 1121 00:56:32,250 --> 00:56:30,820 great American like you know George 1122 00:56:32,700 --> 00:56:32,260 Washington or something like that was 1123 00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:32,710 the 1124 00:56:42,720 --> 00:56:39,490 in a lot of ways um and yeah he you know 1125 00:56:44,250 --> 00:56:42,730 a lot of the stuff that he said came 1126 00:56:46,170 --> 00:56:44,260 true for a lot of people a lot of 1127 00:56:49,230 --> 00:56:46,180 stories for everybody but he did his 1128 00:56:51,690 --> 00:56:49,240 most famous thing of course is the purge 1129 00:56:54,180 --> 00:56:51,700 in so called predicting me a 9/11 thing 1130 00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:54,190 and I'll have a rest of it that's the 1131 00:56:58,680 --> 00:56:57,010 big thing because he said that something 1132 00:57:01,530 --> 00:56:58,690 horrible is gonna happen in this country 1133 00:57:04,950 --> 00:57:01,540 and it was going to be blamed on Osama 1134 00:57:07,589 --> 00:57:04,960 bin Laden this was back in June of 2001 1135 00:57:11,250 --> 00:57:07,599 and lo and behold two months later 1136 00:57:14,070 --> 00:57:11,260 that's what happened more or less so you 1137 00:57:17,310 --> 00:57:14,080 know he's he definitely had a prophetic 1138 00:57:19,230 --> 00:57:17,320 side to him but predicting things and 1139 00:57:23,070 --> 00:57:19,240 being a prophet or two different things 1140 00:57:27,599 --> 00:57:23,080 you know well he had a spiritual side to 1141 00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:27,609 I I just saw YouTube video he made about 1142 00:57:35,190 --> 00:57:32,290 Christianity how most of popular 1143 00:57:37,260 --> 00:57:35,200 Christianity was fake and nothing to do 1144 00:57:47,579 --> 00:57:37,270 but he had us but apparently had a 1145 00:57:48,990 --> 00:57:47,589 spiritual side you know what must hidden 1146 00:57:53,130 --> 00:57:49,000 knows what he wasn't believed in but 1147 00:57:56,510 --> 00:57:53,140 believe me he must have hit somebody's 1148 00:57:59,250 --> 00:57:56,520 nail on the head because they shot him 1149 00:58:00,690 --> 00:57:59,260 well that's a long story and you're 1150 00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:00,700 gonna have to read the book to find out 1151 00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:05,050 about it but you know he got shot and he 1152 00:58:12,780 --> 00:58:07,359 got shot by a police organization but 1153 00:58:14,730 --> 00:58:12,790 it's very complicated about how well 1154 00:58:16,980 --> 00:58:14,740 supposedly he had pulled the gun on a 1155 00:58:18,980 --> 00:58:16,990 neighbor or something right and the 1156 00:58:23,099 --> 00:58:18,990 neighbor went to the police and 1157 00:58:25,470 --> 00:58:23,109 complained about it yeah well I mean the 1158 00:58:27,570 --> 00:58:25,480 short-form story is that Cooper was 1159 00:58:31,170 --> 00:58:27,580 living on top of this Hill I've been 1160 00:58:34,050 --> 00:58:31,180 there many many times during the time 1161 00:58:36,780 --> 00:58:34,060 when I was reporting on the book and at 1162 00:58:38,940 --> 00:58:36,790 that time now it's fairly well populated 1163 00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:38,950 but at that time when Cooper was living 1164 00:58:43,470 --> 00:58:41,890 there in the late 1990s this is after he 1165 00:58:46,140 --> 00:58:43,480 decided that he was going to stay up 1166 00:58:48,329 --> 00:58:46,150 there and he wasn't you know it wasn't 1167 00:58:50,759 --> 00:58:48,339 that's why his wife left because she 1168 00:58:53,670 --> 00:58:50,769 wasn't going to stay in the house for 1169 00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:53,680 the rest of the resistance he wanted to 1170 00:58:58,980 --> 00:58:54,970 stay up there and wait for them to come 1171 00:59:01,650 --> 00:58:58,990 and get him and you know he had he had 1172 00:59:04,049 --> 00:59:01,660 this pretty not very big time warrant 1173 00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:04,059 all the up for his arrest for his tax 1174 00:59:09,269 --> 00:59:07,690 and income tax evasion thing but you 1175 00:59:10,829 --> 00:59:09,279 know who I mean I don't know whatever 1176 00:59:13,170 --> 00:59:10,839 he's right or wrong about paying his 1177 00:59:17,910 --> 00:59:13,180 income tax it's not well I'm thinking 1178 00:59:19,620 --> 00:59:17,920 about it but uh you know so so he always 1179 00:59:24,450 --> 00:59:19,630 acted you wanna know he was up there and 1180 00:59:27,450 --> 00:59:24,460 he was under the impression that he 1181 00:59:29,910 --> 00:59:27,460 owned the whole Hill you know which was 1182 00:59:31,259 --> 00:59:29,920 not actually the case and there were a 1183 00:59:33,150 --> 00:59:31,269 lot of people used to go up there and it 1184 00:59:35,069 --> 00:59:33,160 was like Lovers Lane that's where the 1185 00:59:36,930 --> 00:59:35,079 people from the town McGlashan a smooch 1186 00:59:41,279 --> 00:59:36,940 you know Cooper would come out there and 1187 00:59:43,829 --> 00:59:41,289 chase them away so um and then one day 1188 00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:43,839 this guy who was turned out to be the 1189 00:59:47,670 --> 00:59:45,490 only person that bill Cooper shouldn't 1190 00:59:50,819 --> 00:59:47,680 have screwed around with in this town 1191 00:59:54,029 --> 00:59:50,829 was just one guy named Scott Hamlin who 1192 00:59:55,650 --> 00:59:54,039 was the town doctor but didn't really 1193 00:59:56,970 --> 00:59:55,660 know about Bill Cooper living up there 1194 01:00:00,029 --> 00:59:56,980 because he'd been away doing his 1195 01:00:02,069 --> 01:00:00,039 residency so he came back and he took 1196 01:00:06,180 --> 01:00:02,079 his family up to the hill to watch the 1197 01:00:08,729 --> 01:00:06,190 lightning storms up there and Cooper got 1198 01:00:15,089 --> 01:00:08,739 in a car and I don't know if he's 1199 01:00:16,829 --> 01:00:15,099 drinking or what you know but he was you 1200 01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:16,839 know I don't know I wasn't there but no 1201 01:00:21,239 --> 01:00:18,970 yeah so like he followed this guy 1202 01:00:24,900 --> 01:00:21,249 tailgating him back to his house and 1203 01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:24,910 then got out and and and told me no 1204 01:00:30,630 --> 01:00:27,130 don't you ever come on my land again 1205 01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:30,640 this guy's he turned out to be if you 1206 01:00:34,890 --> 01:00:33,130 know anything about the Mormons the 1207 01:00:37,769 --> 01:00:34,900 Hamlin's are really big deal in the 1208 01:00:39,839 --> 01:00:37,779 Mormon woman Church in fact this guy 1209 01:00:42,029 --> 01:00:39,849 Scott Hamlin is currently the head of 1210 01:00:44,370 --> 01:00:42,039 the Mormon stake and in that whole part 1211 01:00:46,319 --> 01:00:44,380 of our zona and he's a very powerful guy 1212 01:00:48,599 --> 01:00:46,329 and he wasn't the kind of guy that 1213 01:00:50,430 --> 01:00:48,609 really wanted to be I mean egor 1214 01:00:53,309 --> 01:00:50,440 Arizona's are pretty much of a Mormon 1215 01:00:55,289 --> 01:00:53,319 town you know you just don't push away 1216 01:00:58,200 --> 01:00:55,299 that push around the big shots around on 1217 01:00:59,610 --> 01:00:58,210 the way Cooper was doing so Cooper that 1218 01:01:02,130 --> 01:00:59,620 value puts a 40 1219 01:01:06,030 --> 01:01:02,140 guys faceless it don't ever come up on 1220 01:01:07,740 --> 01:01:06,040 my land again and the guy said well yeah 1221 01:01:13,020 --> 01:01:07,750 coop we got back in his truck and left 1222 01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:13,030 and so nobody ever wanted this guy you 1223 01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:14,650 know your father complain with the local 1224 01:01:18,420 --> 01:01:16,210 with the local police because who really 1225 01:01:21,660 --> 01:01:18,430 wants to see a guy waving a gun around 1226 01:01:24,420 --> 01:01:21,670 would your wife and children there so 1227 01:01:26,190 --> 01:01:24,430 eventually and I'm telling you got to 1228 01:01:29,070 --> 01:01:26,200 read this whole thing because it's just 1229 01:01:30,810 --> 01:01:29,080 an analyst but you know it it happened 1230 01:01:33,690 --> 01:01:30,820 with the thing that Cooper did which is 1231 01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:33,700 really his greatest prediction the 1232 01:01:38,220 --> 01:01:35,530 greatest thing he ever did predicting 1233 01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:38,230 lies is that he kept telling his or the 1234 01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:41,290 radio audience the people of the people 1235 01:01:44,670 --> 01:01:42,610 who listened to the hour of the time 1236 01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:44,680 that they were going to come out there 1237 01:01:49,170 --> 01:01:47,410 to his house where he lived on top of 1238 01:01:51,450 --> 01:01:49,180 this hill with nobody else around at 1239 01:01:54,870 --> 01:01:51,460 midnight and they were going to shoot 1240 01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:54,880 him dead on this one doorstep and that's 1241 01:02:00,420 --> 01:01:56,170 exactly what happened 1242 01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:00,430 I mean his time of death a he they shot 1243 01:02:06,540 --> 01:02:03,010 him dead his head landed on the front 1244 01:02:11,850 --> 01:02:06,550 doorstep and maybe they'd 1207 that 1245 01:02:13,650 --> 01:02:11,860 happens ya know so if you want to make a 1246 01:02:15,450 --> 01:02:13,660 prediction about predicting your own 1247 01:02:18,830 --> 01:02:15,460 death is like kind of like well that's 1248 01:02:26,070 --> 01:02:23,190 there's no promise worthy you know do 1249 01:02:30,690 --> 01:02:26,080 you have any idea how many followers he 1250 01:02:32,430 --> 01:02:30,700 actually had well he but always brag Lee 1251 01:02:35,070 --> 01:02:32,440 had 10 million listeners to the 1252 01:02:36,060 --> 01:02:35,080 shortwave radio show which is just 1253 01:02:38,610 --> 01:02:36,070 impossible 1254 01:02:40,650 --> 01:02:38,620 oh yeah but he probably probably has 1255 01:02:42,540 --> 01:02:40,660 more listening I'm sure he has more 1256 01:02:46,140 --> 01:02:42,550 followers now than he ever did when he 1257 01:02:49,140 --> 01:02:46,150 was alive I mean he's incredibly popular 1258 01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:49,150 and the wonderful what keeps him popular 1259 01:02:53,100 --> 01:02:51,370 I don't know if you're listening 1260 01:02:56,010 --> 01:02:53,110 audience really knows much about this 1261 01:02:58,230 --> 01:02:56,020 business that book would behold the pale 1262 01:03:00,830 --> 01:02:58,240 horse book became the most popular book 1263 01:03:04,500 --> 01:03:00,840 in the New York state prison system 1264 01:03:08,370 --> 01:03:04,510 every prisoner was reading him I guess 1265 01:03:12,849 --> 01:03:08,380 now that it's put out by a small it's 1266 01:03:15,069 --> 01:03:12,859 put out by a small publisher in Sedona 1267 01:03:23,739 --> 01:03:15,079 absolutely actually she moved to false 1268 01:03:31,269 --> 01:03:23,749 lips yeah you know I mean I'm sure I'm 1269 01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:31,279 sure she's had a few other even come 1270 01:03:37,089 --> 01:03:34,130 anywhere close to that 1271 01:03:39,549 --> 01:03:37,099 no matter I mean I used to I used to 1272 01:03:41,229 --> 01:03:39,559 order that book wholesale by the carton 1273 01:03:43,539 --> 01:03:41,239 and that's a pretty heavy carton because 1274 01:03:44,769 --> 01:03:43,549 that book is what six hundred pages or 1275 01:03:46,809 --> 01:03:44,779 something like that you know the book is 1276 01:03:50,259 --> 01:03:46,819 still number one it's look was published 1277 01:03:54,309 --> 01:03:50,269 in 1991 is still number one best seller 1278 01:03:56,650 --> 01:03:54,319 on Amazon of a Colt information I mean 1279 01:03:59,670 --> 01:03:56,660 it's a lot of books been written about 1280 01:04:02,739 --> 01:03:59,680 the assault on a boss thirty years and 1281 01:04:04,329 --> 01:04:02,749 number one and one of those in about two 1282 01:04:08,949 --> 01:04:04,339 or three of those categories you know 1283 01:04:11,380 --> 01:04:08,959 and in fact remember this guy Q and on 1284 01:04:13,569 --> 01:04:11,390 who was big for because ten minutes oh 1285 01:04:15,670 --> 01:04:13,579 yeah yeah yes yes 1286 01:04:17,890 --> 01:04:15,680 doing the killing on went on this show 1287 01:04:19,900 --> 01:04:17,900 right or whatever he was doing so yeah 1288 01:04:22,180 --> 01:04:19,910 what are those weird info drops he was 1289 01:04:25,209 --> 01:04:22,190 doing I don't know but he said that his 1290 01:04:28,059 --> 01:04:25,219 idol was Bill Cooper and all his 1291 01:04:31,809 --> 01:04:28,069 followers bill Cooper that book shot up 1292 01:04:34,959 --> 01:04:31,819 to number 17 on Amazon I mean a battle 1293 01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:34,969 of all the books double yeah the head of 1294 01:04:43,150 --> 01:04:37,130 that was a helluva late at night moon 1295 01:04:46,359 --> 01:04:43,160 and like you know yeah it's amazing how 1296 01:04:53,739 --> 01:04:46,369 that book sold over 300,000 copies yeah 1297 01:04:58,049 --> 01:04:53,749 yeah yeah actually yeah what has been 1298 01:05:03,069 --> 01:04:58,059 the reaction to your book yeah Buneary 1299 01:05:05,349 --> 01:05:03,079 original well I mean I got a I got a lot 1300 01:05:08,650 --> 01:05:05,359 of nice reviews I'm featuring their New 1301 01:05:10,630 --> 01:05:08,660 York Times you know there were excerpts 1302 01:05:13,209 --> 01:05:10,640 in Rolling Stone totally that book is 1303 01:05:15,579 --> 01:05:13,219 selling fare but I just have the people 1304 01:05:18,219 --> 01:05:15,589 who are the people I want to read this 1305 01:05:19,059 --> 01:05:18,229 book that I realized which I never would 1306 01:05:20,650 --> 01:05:19,069 have guessed 1307 01:05:22,239 --> 01:05:20,660 there's a lot of these things about 1308 01:05:24,370 --> 01:05:22,249 conspiracy you never really can guess 1309 01:05:27,939 --> 01:05:24,380 whose interest in it I mean the people 1310 01:05:32,179 --> 01:05:27,949 that are interested in are hip hop 1311 01:05:33,410 --> 01:05:32,189 pep up followers and people at this ever 1312 01:05:36,319 --> 01:05:33,420 as it was saying when the book got 1313 01:05:39,859 --> 01:05:36,329 popular in the prison all those rapper 1314 01:05:42,469 --> 01:05:39,869 guys read it you know and everybody from 1315 01:05:45,259 --> 01:05:42,479 Tupac Shakur you know all the ways that 1316 01:05:47,479 --> 01:05:45,269 guy was in the wu-tang clan huge bill 1317 01:05:49,519 --> 01:05:47,489 Cooper fans I mean right about sang 1318 01:05:51,769 --> 01:05:49,529 about him all the time then that's how 1319 01:05:52,429 --> 01:05:51,779 we got more and more popular long after 1320 01:05:56,059 --> 01:05:52,439 his death 1321 01:05:58,459 --> 01:05:56,069 well why wash but why why do popular 1322 01:06:02,089 --> 01:05:58,469 because what it is what it is is like 1323 01:06:03,769 --> 01:06:02,099 Cooper a chick articulated I mean I 1324 01:06:06,170 --> 01:06:03,779 don't want to go to deep dish on you man 1325 01:06:08,359 --> 01:06:06,180 but I mean me but Cooper but Cooper 1326 01:06:11,269 --> 01:06:08,369 articulated because he was so paranoid 1327 01:06:13,699 --> 01:06:11,279 for the lack of a better term called 1328 01:06:17,239 --> 01:06:13,709 people paranoid because it seems to take 1329 01:06:20,599 --> 01:06:17,249 in a lot of territory but um you know he 1330 01:06:23,299 --> 01:06:20,609 was so suspicious of his surroundings 1331 01:06:26,559 --> 01:06:23,309 and and everything like that that if I 1332 01:06:28,789 --> 01:06:26,569 would beg to say that I parent 1333 01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:28,799 african-american who's incarcerated in a 1334 01:06:33,829 --> 01:06:31,170 New York state prison you probably be a 1335 01:06:36,079 --> 01:06:33,839 pretty paranoid guy to begin with and so 1336 01:06:38,989 --> 01:06:36,089 people were thinking that well if a 1337 01:06:41,569 --> 01:06:38,999 white guy wrote this book and plus a 1338 01:06:44,239 --> 01:06:41,579 white guy from the Navy wrote it well it 1339 01:06:46,370 --> 01:06:44,249 must be true right and then it began 1340 01:06:49,099 --> 01:06:46,380 reading it and a lot of that stuff in 1341 01:06:52,309 --> 01:06:49,109 there it really makes it that that whole 1342 01:06:56,239 --> 01:06:52,319 essay called the Cylon weapons acquire 1343 01:06:59,989 --> 01:06:56,249 Wars is is really just read it really is 1344 01:07:03,259 --> 01:06:59,999 sort of prophetic well it's like they 1345 01:07:05,329 --> 01:07:03,269 saying he was pretty much of a prophet I 1346 01:07:07,729 --> 01:07:05,339 think what you're describing there is 1347 01:07:12,069 --> 01:07:07,739 could be compared to the Johnny Cash 1348 01:07:15,049 --> 01:07:12,079 syndrome when people ended up well 1349 01:07:19,789 --> 01:07:15,059 Cash's music was very popular prisoners 1350 01:07:23,959 --> 01:07:19,799 to that I think the he was speaking to 1351 01:07:26,479 --> 01:07:23,969 an inner an inner yearning that these 1352 01:07:29,419 --> 01:07:26,489 prisoners had against the establishment 1353 01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:29,429 you know and you definitely right about 1354 01:07:36,130 --> 01:07:33,890 the definitely right yeah yeah 1355 01:07:37,570 --> 01:07:36,140 you're right I mean you know this kind 1356 01:07:40,630 --> 01:07:37,580 of feeling that like you know they'll 1357 01:07:42,970 --> 01:07:40,640 have to get you and they got you kinda 1358 01:07:45,730 --> 01:07:42,980 you know in Johnny Cash is another one 1359 01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:45,740 then he's the man in black you know well 1360 01:07:54,460 --> 01:07:52,010 for original matter black but you know 1361 01:07:56,350 --> 01:07:54,470 so they when you ask them by the book I 1362 01:07:57,910 --> 01:07:56,360 mean it's unfair but I think when the 1363 01:08:00,100 --> 01:07:57,920 paperback comes out I expect you do a 1364 01:08:01,660 --> 01:08:00,110 lot better because the people who want 1365 01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:01,670 to read this book don't want to spend 27 1366 01:08:11,590 --> 01:08:07,730 billion over $12 they might like it a 1367 01:08:15,910 --> 01:08:11,600 lot better you know but is it out there 1368 01:08:17,230 --> 01:08:15,920 is it out there on Kindle and Kindle you 1369 01:08:20,380 --> 01:08:17,240 know all that regular stuff was 1370 01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:20,390 published by Random House by Random 1371 01:08:26,550 --> 01:08:22,570 House so you know all the usual stuff 1372 01:08:28,930 --> 01:08:26,560 but you know I don't know it's just I 1373 01:08:30,970 --> 01:08:28,940 find it to be a fascinating guy because 1374 01:08:33,790 --> 01:08:30,980 he's so I mean the thing about the 1375 01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:33,800 Vietnam War was him if he goes for the 1376 01:08:38,740 --> 01:08:36,170 front lines of the Vietnam War he grows 1377 01:08:41,020 --> 01:08:38,750 up like John Wayne's his favorite guy 1378 01:08:43,630 --> 01:08:41,030 you know and he believes everything 1379 01:08:45,010 --> 01:08:43,640 about the military and the goodness of 1380 01:08:46,780 --> 01:08:45,020 America and then when he gets to the 1381 01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:46,790 front lines in the Vietnam War he begins 1382 01:08:52,300 --> 01:08:49,850 to see like oh man this is really not 1383 01:08:54,340 --> 01:08:52,310 okay you know then I've been I'm really 1384 01:08:56,470 --> 01:08:54,350 running this thing particularly well and 1385 01:08:58,960 --> 01:08:56,480 there's you know and almost my friends 1386 01:09:01,990 --> 01:08:58,970 getting killed for what 1387 01:09:05,350 --> 01:09:02,000 yes sir like and then he came back and 1388 01:09:08,710 --> 01:09:05,360 he began to put that into every you know 1389 01:09:11,290 --> 01:09:08,720 UFO stuff nobody would have to get you 1390 01:09:13,510 --> 01:09:11,300 maybe was going to be the aliens then it 1391 01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:13,520 was gonna be these liberal politicians 1392 01:09:17,530 --> 01:09:15,170 or whatever it was there was always 1393 01:09:20,290 --> 01:09:17,540 somebody was out to get you working on 1394 01:09:21,610 --> 01:09:20,300 more or less you know I I guess I can't 1395 01:09:23,830 --> 01:09:21,620 see the problem with that kind of 1396 01:09:26,380 --> 01:09:23,840 thinking I mean in this society you 1397 01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:26,390 crazy be wearing the red yeah all you 1398 01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:30,650 have to do is look at the news just look 1399 01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:34,370 around you you know it's a it's permeate 1400 01:09:39,330 --> 01:09:36,050 just about everything that's going on 1401 01:09:44,779 --> 01:09:43,429 you get a feeling that like when things 1402 01:09:46,819 --> 01:09:44,789 the first thing people can think about 1403 01:09:49,729 --> 01:09:46,829 is like you know see the differences 1404 01:09:51,620 --> 01:09:49,739 between I mean as opposed to like the 1405 01:09:54,409 --> 01:09:51,630 same missus and that's kind of a sick 1406 01:09:58,100 --> 01:09:54,419 society you know it's heading in the 1407 01:09:59,959 --> 01:09:58,110 wrong direction yeah so um I don't know 1408 01:10:02,089 --> 01:09:59,969 what's happening but Cooper was really 1409 01:10:04,100 --> 01:10:02,099 he was very prophetic about that he was 1410 01:10:08,569 --> 01:10:04,110 really kind of like a forerunner of that 1411 01:10:12,199 --> 01:10:08,579 kind of didn't he also didn't he also 1412 01:10:14,659 --> 01:10:12,209 speak about the CAA in a drug drug oh 1413 01:10:17,719 --> 01:10:14,669 yeah yeah that was a big thing for him I 1414 01:10:22,009 --> 01:10:17,729 mean you know he he had all that stuff 1415 01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:22,019 the idea of it before that the stuff in 1416 01:10:27,679 --> 01:10:25,530 the Gary Webb stuff ever came out you 1417 01:10:29,629 --> 01:10:27,689 know invented Gary Gary Webb did the 1418 01:10:31,879 --> 01:10:29,639 actual work to prove it 1419 01:10:34,419 --> 01:10:31,889 you know so he was a real journalist I 1420 01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:34,429 mean Cooper has like the concept of that 1421 01:10:39,770 --> 01:10:37,050 early on and he talked about it actually 1422 01:10:41,569 --> 01:10:39,780 at the MUFON convention which is like 1423 01:10:45,709 --> 01:10:41,579 when you go back to UFOs is like a 1424 01:10:49,189 --> 01:10:45,719 classic the 1989 MUFON convention was 1425 01:10:52,989 --> 01:10:49,199 the most glorious kind convention of the 1426 01:10:55,250 --> 01:10:52,999 history of MUFON because that were they 1427 01:10:57,909 --> 01:10:55,260 isn't that where they had actual two 1428 01:11:00,259 --> 01:10:57,919 shows going on they had the the 1429 01:11:02,779 --> 01:11:00,269 sanctioned MUFON conference and that 1430 01:11:04,819 --> 01:11:02,789 leerin these guys that rented a is sweet 1431 01:11:06,589 --> 01:11:04,829 damn I'm gonna I'm gonna have I'm gonna 1432 01:11:08,390 --> 01:11:06,599 have to stop you here because we are at 1433 01:11:10,489 --> 01:11:08,400 our bottom of the hour break so hold on 1434 01:11:13,129 --> 01:11:10,499 to your question you can ask it when we 1435 01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:13,139 come back on exploring the bizarre so 1436 01:11:27,290 --> 01:11:24,709 now back to exploring the bazaar with 1437 01:11:30,590 --> 01:11:27,300 two of the most electrifying researchers 1438 01:11:36,310 --> 01:11:30,600 in the Paranoid your hosts Timothy Becca 1439 01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:38,479 all right welcome back to exploring the 1440 01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:40,050 bazaar and Tim you were just getting 1441 01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:43,290 ready to ask a question about the 89 1442 01:11:47,780 --> 01:11:45,930 MUFON convention well you know I don't 1443 01:11:52,570 --> 01:11:47,790 remember I've been too busy eating gummy 1444 01:12:00,650 --> 01:11:57,680 I swear no let's see there was the 1445 01:12:04,790 --> 01:12:00,660 sanction convention at one hotel and 1446 01:12:08,870 --> 01:12:04,800 then the renegades which were the John 1447 01:12:11,750 --> 01:12:08,880 Lear bill Cooper and I think one other 1448 01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:11,760 person whose name I can't go oh much 1449 01:12:16,490 --> 01:12:13,650 built they have bill collection 1450 01:12:18,770 --> 01:12:16,500 bill English yes yes yeah all English 1451 01:12:21,500 --> 01:12:18,780 and also Don Ecker Don Ecker was part of 1452 01:12:28,510 --> 01:12:21,510 that original group and then critical 1453 01:12:31,100 --> 01:12:28,520 and Cooper eventually Hey yeah well 1454 01:12:34,820 --> 01:12:31,110 Edgar has that problem sometimes he can 1455 01:12:39,459 --> 01:12:34,830 just like somebody like I get along with 1456 01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:43,280 Cooper would Lear Lear was the state 1457 01:12:48,620 --> 01:12:46,050 coordinator because he lives in Las 1458 01:12:50,959 --> 01:12:48,630 Vegas and then he said he was gonna have 1459 01:12:52,970 --> 01:12:50,969 his people on like Cooper and those guys 1460 01:12:55,550 --> 01:12:52,980 you know with this kind of stuff that 1461 01:12:57,680 --> 01:12:55,560 was already people like the people with 1462 01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:57,690 stand-in Freedmen's of the world we're 1463 01:13:01,610 --> 01:13:00,000 all really kind of like yeah they didn't 1464 01:13:05,300 --> 01:13:01,620 like this kind of thing because you know 1465 01:13:07,930 --> 01:13:05,310 I mean it was just obviously a whole 1466 01:13:11,540 --> 01:13:07,940 different topic in a lot of ways and 1467 01:13:14,090 --> 01:13:11,550 because the political stuff yeah Cooper 1468 01:13:16,820 --> 01:13:14,100 was uh was advancing that and and Matt 1469 01:13:19,940 --> 01:13:16,830 which mean he actually made a meaningful 1470 01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:19,950 you know for better or worse thing which 1471 01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:23,610 stays in ufology with by connecting it 1472 01:13:27,290 --> 01:13:25,530 and so intensely was political stuff and 1473 01:13:28,430 --> 01:13:27,300 cover-ups and stuff like that that was 1474 01:13:30,770 --> 01:13:28,440 you know a lot of that has to do 1475 01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:30,780 with him just because he was so forceful 1476 01:13:37,700 --> 01:13:33,210 about it but I'm what happened basically 1477 01:13:39,470 --> 01:13:37,710 was lere lere was we were a ducat with 1478 01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:39,480 longer the guy you just mentioned was 1479 01:13:44,270 --> 01:13:42,810 dangerous right who didn't want you 1480 01:13:46,100 --> 01:13:44,280 didn't want any of that political stuff 1481 01:13:48,340 --> 01:13:46,110 here he what I really didn't want 1482 01:13:51,170 --> 01:13:48,350 anything any insight when he felt was 1483 01:13:53,750 --> 01:13:51,180 anti-americanism you know and and so 1484 01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:53,760 Lear says well screw you will go down 1485 01:13:57,560 --> 01:13:55,890 the muzzle down it was the hotels but 1486 01:13:59,930 --> 01:13:57,570 muta Convention was being healthy 1487 01:14:01,580 --> 01:13:59,940 Aladdin so he says look at that I rent 1488 01:14:04,550 --> 01:14:01,590 another hall you know and we'll get more 1489 01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:04,560 customers in you Ellen Andrews like must 1490 01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:05,610 have realized that this was probably 1491 01:14:10,150 --> 01:14:07,530 true because he backed down and they all 1492 01:14:12,770 --> 01:14:10,160 did eventually presented the Aladdin 1493 01:14:15,430 --> 01:14:12,780 yeah there was a certain faction in 1494 01:14:18,620 --> 01:14:15,440 ufology that wanted to stay away from 1495 01:14:22,060 --> 01:14:18,630 humanoid reports or anything esoteric 1496 01:14:24,110 --> 01:14:22,070 overly esoteric they had the strict 1497 01:14:28,070 --> 01:14:24,120 viewpoint that they were in metal 1498 01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:28,080 spaceships coming here and anything 1499 01:14:34,970 --> 01:14:31,890 III think the borderland Research 1500 01:14:38,959 --> 01:14:34,980 Society had a fairly open-minded 1501 01:14:43,729 --> 01:14:38,969 approach to use and was it laying 1502 01:14:49,430 --> 01:14:43,739 modeling you meet me delay me laying and 1503 01:14:51,340 --> 01:14:49,440 then Riley then Riley crab took over but 1504 01:14:55,490 --> 01:14:51,350 you know it was major Keyhoe 1505 01:15:00,320 --> 01:14:55,500 who pushed the extra-terrestrial theory 1506 01:15:03,790 --> 01:15:00,330 if it wasn't for for nightcap I mean we 1507 01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:03,800 might not be that deeply entrenched in 1508 01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:10,290 ete th and it's kind of curious that the 1509 01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:14,850 the hierarchy of nightcap were CIA and 1510 01:15:21,830 --> 01:15:19,650 military yeah yeah when it didn't 1511 01:15:24,020 --> 01:15:21,840 project sign also come out with report 1512 01:15:27,380 --> 01:15:24,030 that said they were extraterrestrial I 1513 01:15:29,870 --> 01:15:27,390 don't know order yeah in the beginning 1514 01:15:31,610 --> 01:15:29,880 there was a kind of a split in the in 1515 01:15:34,220 --> 01:15:31,620 the airforce among those who thought it 1516 01:15:38,410 --> 01:15:34,230 was a you know hopes or hallucination 1517 01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:38,420 now do you know who the actual first 1518 01:15:44,810 --> 01:15:42,449 director of nightcap was before Kido 1519 01:15:49,009 --> 01:15:44,820 listen this will no yeah Ellen Kenner 1520 01:15:52,819 --> 01:15:49,019 yeah no it was t Townsend Brown oh 1521 01:15:56,209 --> 01:15:52,829 that's right yeah yeah yeah and it was 1522 01:15:59,419 --> 01:15:56,219 contact he was near oh he was the one 1523 01:16:03,100 --> 01:15:59,429 that did he was working on a propulsion 1524 01:16:06,199 --> 01:16:03,110 system remember yeah he had 1525 01:16:08,679 --> 01:16:06,209 electromagnetic forces or something 1526 01:16:11,500 --> 01:16:08,689 along that line like two 1527 01:16:14,719 --> 01:16:11,510 electrogravitics is he called yeah yeah 1528 01:16:18,080 --> 01:16:14,729 and I've seen videos of these things 1529 01:16:20,449 --> 01:16:18,090 that are flying around is you know a 1530 01:16:22,549 --> 01:16:20,459 warehouse they're not greatly impressive 1531 01:16:26,029 --> 01:16:22,559 but they were they were flying of their 1532 01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:26,039 own you know volition but he was the 1533 01:16:34,370 --> 01:16:30,090 original director until for some reason 1534 01:16:37,100 --> 01:16:34,380 he was ousted there was a major key oh 1535 01:16:40,669 --> 01:16:37,110 and then he had a secretary there I 1536 01:16:42,529 --> 01:16:40,679 believe her name was rose because I was 1537 01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:42,539 in touch with her long after the 1538 01:16:48,350 --> 01:16:46,010 organization that you know folded 1539 01:16:50,350 --> 01:16:48,360 although there still is a skeleton 1540 01:16:53,719 --> 01:16:50,360 organization that calls themselves 1541 01:16:55,609 --> 01:16:53,729 nightcap but you can find him on the 1542 01:16:59,299 --> 01:16:55,619 internet but they'll never answer an 1543 01:17:02,209 --> 01:16:59,309 email oh well that's something right 1544 01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:04,819 Tim don't you think that there's this 1545 01:17:13,239 --> 01:17:09,449 the composition the the the the oddities 1546 01:17:16,029 --> 01:17:13,249 of the of some of these organizations 1547 01:17:19,939 --> 01:17:16,039 doesn't that kind of make you question 1548 01:17:23,270 --> 01:17:19,949 what really was going on well you know 1549 01:17:26,029 --> 01:17:23,280 outside a nightcap I I don't think any 1550 01:17:30,739 --> 01:17:26,039 of these organizations really had any 1551 01:17:32,419 --> 01:17:30,749 great clout I mean you had a bro 1552 01:17:34,759 --> 01:17:32,429 which of course was down there in Tucson 1553 01:17:37,239 --> 01:17:34,769 and they had about fifteen or sixteen 1554 01:17:40,100 --> 01:17:37,249 hundred members in fact Steve our 1555 01:17:45,259 --> 01:17:40,110 interplanetary News Service had as many 1556 01:17:46,939 --> 01:17:45,269 members as as appro had we weren't as 1557 01:17:50,029 --> 01:17:46,949 well organized and we didn't have people 1558 01:17:53,899 --> 01:17:50,039 to to translate you know the the foreign 1559 01:17:56,239 --> 01:17:53,909 reports or anything but you know I mean 1560 01:17:58,399 --> 01:17:56,249 that night cap was the leader 1561 01:18:00,859 --> 01:17:58,409 at one point they had a membership of 1562 01:18:03,919 --> 01:18:00,869 about I think about seven or eight 1563 01:18:06,919 --> 01:18:03,929 thousand paid people and then there was 1564 01:18:11,299 --> 01:18:06,929 a dr. Hynek subgroup was never very 1565 01:18:13,969 --> 01:18:11,309 large except when Close Encounters of 1566 01:18:16,250 --> 01:18:13,979 the Third Kind came out and most of 1567 01:18:18,020 --> 01:18:16,260 their member were very young 1568 01:18:20,569 --> 01:18:18,030 you know how they got the bulk of their 1569 01:18:25,549 --> 01:18:20,579 members from the movie they made a deal 1570 01:18:28,969 --> 01:18:25,559 with some ice cream company for frozen 1571 01:18:31,549 --> 01:18:28,979 pops like fudgesicles or orange bars or 1572 01:18:34,069 --> 01:18:31,559 whatever you call it and it had like you 1573 01:18:37,759 --> 01:18:34,079 know a wraparound with the Center for 1574 01:18:40,129 --> 01:18:37,769 UFO studies information on it and that's 1575 01:18:42,830 --> 01:18:40,139 where they got a lot of their members 1576 01:18:44,810 --> 01:18:42,840 from you know I they put out a get Jerry 1577 01:18:46,879 --> 01:18:44,820 Clark of course edited the the 1578 01:18:49,969 --> 01:18:46,889 newsletter he did a good job 1579 01:18:51,350 --> 01:18:49,979 benda now this show on TV I don't know 1580 01:18:55,339 --> 01:18:51,360 if you saw it on the History Channel 1581 01:18:58,459 --> 01:18:55,349 it is abominable I mean it's it's kind 1582 01:19:02,060 --> 01:18:58,469 of nice for an advertiser Lee you know 1583 01:19:04,790 --> 01:19:02,070 it look like who's gonna be bad well you 1584 01:19:06,290 --> 01:19:04,800 know it's it's okay I understand it's 1585 01:19:08,930 --> 01:19:06,300 supposed to be a drama and it's not 1586 01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:08,940 supposed to be a document document er II 1587 01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:12,210 but they went they went far afield i I 1588 01:19:15,649 --> 01:19:13,650 mean they could have taken the stuff 1589 01:19:18,770 --> 01:19:15,659 that really happened and made a drama 1590 01:19:21,109 --> 01:19:18,780 out of it like you know in search of or 1591 01:19:23,509 --> 01:19:21,119 unsolved mysteries that was so one of 1592 01:19:26,180 --> 01:19:23,519 the the better ones they got dr. Hynek 1593 01:19:28,729 --> 01:19:26,190 in the first episode trying to prove 1594 01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:28,739 that uh that a sighting was not a 1595 01:19:34,009 --> 01:19:31,650 balloon that it was an actual UFO and he 1596 01:19:36,950 --> 01:19:34,019 goes up with this Air Force guy in a 1597 01:19:39,140 --> 01:19:36,960 plane and chases a balloon or you're for 1598 01:19:41,299 --> 01:19:39,150 something and the plane almost crashes 1599 01:19:44,390 --> 01:19:41,309 he never went up in a plane to chase a 1600 01:19:51,950 --> 01:19:44,400 UFO there's a fella from the Thomas 1601 01:19:54,649 --> 01:19:51,960 Mantell last night they're out in search 1602 01:19:57,620 --> 01:19:54,659 of the flatwoods monster and and and 1603 01:19:59,600 --> 01:19:57,630 there's a a crowd certainly in the home 1604 01:20:01,370 --> 01:19:59,610 I guess of the witnesses I I don't know 1605 01:20:03,589 --> 01:20:01,380 what I'm wearing the house down or hang 1606 01:20:05,870 --> 01:20:03,599 the witnesses or god knows what and the 1607 01:20:08,839 --> 01:20:05,880 military guy shows up with a shotgun and 1608 01:20:09,770 --> 01:20:08,849 inside and and it hits somebody with the 1609 01:20:15,440 --> 01:20:09,780 one of the right 1610 01:20:18,350 --> 01:20:15,450 I mean you couldn't you could have taken 1611 01:20:21,770 --> 01:20:18,360 the story and and made a good drama out 1612 01:20:24,650 --> 01:20:21,780 of it they screwed it up that's it and 1613 01:20:27,020 --> 01:20:24,660 so I was so for looking forward to that 1614 01:20:29,300 --> 01:20:27,030 and I'm not I'm not the type of person 1615 01:20:31,790 --> 01:20:29,310 I'm not a purist I mean I make movies 1616 01:20:35,690 --> 01:20:31,800 you know myself or I have in the past 1617 01:20:37,340 --> 01:20:35,700 mr. freefall look me up but you know if 1618 01:20:41,060 --> 01:20:37,350 you got something like this you don't 1619 01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:41,070 need to fudge in this tree line it's 1620 01:20:46,130 --> 01:20:43,970 it's crazy and all by itself 1621 01:20:53,380 --> 01:20:46,140 yeah it's gonna have its share of 1622 01:20:58,580 --> 01:20:55,850 you think Marcus and it has anybody 1623 01:21:00,800 --> 01:20:58,590 tried to do a movie or anything about 1624 01:21:03,140 --> 01:21:00,810 super that you know then I've gotten 1625 01:21:05,480 --> 01:21:03,150 done and then a few enquiries somebody 1626 01:21:07,310 --> 01:21:05,490 wanted to do a scripted podcast and then 1627 01:21:09,740 --> 01:21:07,320 they've been a couple people that have 1628 01:21:13,520 --> 01:21:09,750 been interested in doing a movie but you 1629 01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:13,530 know I judge these things for the 1630 01:21:17,390 --> 01:21:15,570 greatest band you know you know I said 1631 01:21:19,520 --> 01:21:17,400 well you know I'm happy to sell you the 1632 01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:19,530 you know give you an option you know 1633 01:21:28,820 --> 01:21:26,130 just send a check you know and I think 1634 01:21:32,540 --> 01:21:28,830 the last time I got offered adoption it 1635 01:21:34,790 --> 01:21:32,550 was for $300 and and it was a it was a 1636 01:21:37,160 --> 01:21:34,800 fairly I forget whom but it was a you 1637 01:21:40,730 --> 01:21:37,170 know the fairly major player and I just 1638 01:21:42,350 --> 01:21:40,740 said now you know I just I mean you know 1639 01:21:44,990 --> 01:21:42,360 some worth it at a certain point because 1640 01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:45,000 like the time thing up for six months I 1641 01:21:50,750 --> 01:21:49,050 think it's so great because they're from 1642 01:21:53,330 --> 01:21:50,760 the movies that you're gonna jump at any 1643 01:21:55,490 --> 01:21:53,340 stupid thing they that they offer you 1644 01:21:57,980 --> 01:21:55,500 well you know it's not the case 1645 01:22:02,000 --> 01:21:57,990 oh yeah you know I'm actually thinking 1646 01:22:04,190 --> 01:22:02,010 that um well I'm gonna do a whole bunch 1647 01:22:06,110 --> 01:22:04,200 of new stuff to try to publicize the 1648 01:22:08,780 --> 01:22:06,120 book when the paperback comes out I have 1649 01:22:11,300 --> 01:22:08,790 a few ideas which actually we did this 1650 01:22:13,580 --> 01:22:11,310 thing which was great because I couldn't 1651 01:22:23,509 --> 01:22:13,590 make sense in a book I could I couldn't 1652 01:22:27,469 --> 01:22:23,519 make it up three flights yeah yeah 1653 01:22:29,719 --> 01:22:27,479 we're talking about in the book because 1654 01:22:33,079 --> 01:22:29,729 yeah for William Cooper the the real guy 1655 01:22:35,569 --> 01:22:33,089 was so big in the rap world that there 1656 01:22:38,629 --> 01:22:35,579 was a rapper that took the name William 1657 01:22:40,339 --> 01:22:38,639 Cooper and he raps into this day he raps 1658 01:22:42,139 --> 01:22:40,349 under the name William Cooper and he's 1659 01:22:45,199 --> 01:22:42,149 made several records oh it's so pretty 1660 01:22:47,750 --> 01:22:45,209 well and he's a very good rapper and so 1661 01:22:49,819 --> 01:22:47,760 I I came across and when I was working 1662 01:22:51,829 --> 01:22:49,829 on the book and we've got to be friendly 1663 01:22:54,709 --> 01:22:51,839 and then lady he when the book came out 1664 01:22:57,709 --> 01:22:54,719 he made a video called pant walls rider 1665 01:22:59,929 --> 01:22:57,719 which is the name of the book which you 1666 01:23:02,629 --> 01:22:59,939 can follow me at pale horse rider book 1667 01:23:06,500 --> 01:23:02,639 on Instagram I feel you all should just 1668 01:23:08,750 --> 01:23:06,510 run right now to do that and and you 1669 01:23:11,389 --> 01:23:08,760 know so he made a video we put this 1670 01:23:17,869 --> 01:23:11,399 video together and we showed it and then 1671 01:23:20,869 --> 01:23:17,879 they performed alive it was great you 1672 01:23:23,509 --> 01:23:20,879 know as many times as I have been in 1673 01:23:25,299 --> 01:23:23,519 that bar KGB's I never knew there was a 1674 01:23:36,769 --> 01:23:25,309 third floor 1675 01:23:38,719 --> 01:23:36,779 well actually a fourth one yeah well we 1676 01:23:43,509 --> 01:23:38,729 used to hang out there till God knows 1677 01:23:46,759 --> 01:23:43,519 how what hour of the day and night but 1678 01:23:48,559 --> 01:23:46,769 yeah yeah great far with I mean was what 1679 01:23:51,589 --> 01:23:48,569 the heck you're gonna find a you know 1680 01:23:55,099 --> 01:23:51,599 Stalin and Lenin on me on the wall I 1681 01:23:57,679 --> 01:23:55,109 mean is it true that it was that it was 1682 01:24:01,309 --> 01:23:57,689 a hangout for a well you know what 1683 01:24:04,219 --> 01:24:01,319 happened it was a that building used to 1684 01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:04,229 be Ukrainian party communist party home 1685 01:24:09,349 --> 01:24:07,010 so when is the guy who owns the building 1686 01:24:11,059 --> 01:24:09,359 gotta hold the building when the 1687 01:24:12,919 --> 01:24:11,069 basement he found always comes his 1688 01:24:17,239 --> 01:24:12,929 fledge and stuff like that so he thought 1689 01:24:20,089 --> 01:24:17,249 well you know these he just put him up 1690 01:24:21,649 --> 01:24:20,099 on a wall not believe it hasn't he he's 1691 01:24:29,659 --> 01:24:21,659 not interested in that kind political 1692 01:24:33,489 --> 01:24:29,669 position at all and and they saw the 1693 01:24:37,250 --> 01:24:33,499 poetry readings and it's one of the few 1694 01:24:38,660 --> 01:24:37,260 bars you know like 1695 01:24:40,609 --> 01:24:38,670 artisan bars or whatever you would call 1696 01:24:43,279 --> 01:24:40,619 that you know the caters to the there 1697 01:24:46,009 --> 01:24:43,289 used to be a bunch of New York I mean it 1698 01:24:47,569 --> 01:24:46,019 was the I think the lion's den and I 1699 01:24:51,169 --> 01:24:47,579 don't know they were there were quite a 1700 01:24:52,939 --> 01:24:51,179 few the the writers Club and and stuff 1701 01:24:55,839 --> 01:24:52,949 like that and they they just dwindled 1702 01:24:57,220 --> 01:24:55,849 over the over the years I mean they just 1703 01:24:59,959 --> 01:24:57,230 disappeared 1704 01:25:00,709 --> 01:24:59,969 the internet put the final nail in that 1705 01:25:04,160 --> 01:25:00,719 coffin 1706 01:25:07,220 --> 01:25:04,170 a lot of different things including 1707 01:25:09,919 --> 01:25:07,230 including the publishing industry to a 1708 01:25:14,270 --> 01:25:09,929 large to a large extent I mean I I'm 1709 01:25:16,879 --> 01:25:14,280 going now with the Amazon where it's 1710 01:25:18,580 --> 01:25:16,889 just atrocious to what what they've done 1711 01:25:20,899 --> 01:25:18,590 they've combined two of their car 1712 01:25:24,020 --> 01:25:20,909 companies together and the sales that 1713 01:25:26,720 --> 01:25:24,030 dissipated and and disappeared and and 1714 01:25:29,569 --> 01:25:26,730 you know I mean I make my living and I 1715 01:25:31,759 --> 01:25:29,579 hire you know people and am responsible 1716 01:25:34,790 --> 01:25:31,769 for paying them and all of a sudden 1717 01:25:37,250 --> 01:25:34,800 Amazon the site so let's go in this 1718 01:25:40,399 --> 01:25:37,260 direction with this and and lose the 1719 01:25:41,600 --> 01:25:40,409 counting of everybody's you know sales 1720 01:25:44,299 --> 01:25:41,610 figures and stuff 1721 01:25:48,439 --> 01:25:44,309 yeah the wild world of corporatism 1722 01:25:49,879 --> 01:25:48,449 that's one of my bugaboos well you know 1723 01:25:50,930 --> 01:25:49,889 you know let me talk about this talk 1724 01:25:52,339 --> 01:25:50,940 about the government the government 1725 01:25:53,689 --> 01:25:52,349 through in that degree people should 1726 01:25:55,700 --> 01:25:53,699 have been a little more time looking at 1727 01:25:59,689 --> 01:25:55,710 the corporation's we're really running 1728 01:26:01,310 --> 01:25:59,699 the show you know so those guys I mean I 1729 01:26:02,810 --> 01:26:01,320 don't know I mean Amazon you know like 1730 01:26:16,189 --> 01:26:02,820 I'd be those the richest guy in the 1731 01:26:18,740 --> 01:26:16,199 country now he's getting like he's 1732 01:26:20,899 --> 01:26:18,750 getting a divorce and he has to pay his 1733 01:26:22,700 --> 01:26:20,909 wife after the money if they're oh there 1734 01:26:28,850 --> 01:26:22,710 there's a real industry there's a 1735 01:26:33,589 --> 01:26:28,860 divorce money that flows through the 1736 01:26:36,770 --> 01:26:33,599 hands of those lawyers it's a shame and 1737 01:26:38,870 --> 01:26:36,780 it becomes sober a part of her life we 1738 01:26:41,299 --> 01:26:38,880 don't question it it's like oh yeah you 1739 01:26:43,700 --> 01:26:41,309 know well we'll do it we'll do another 1740 01:26:45,259 --> 01:26:43,710 show on that I would I would think but 1741 01:26:49,069 --> 01:26:45,269 you know what I wanted to ask you you 1742 01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:49,079 you had mentioned very briefly about how 1743 01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:51,210 you were collecting a material on 1744 01:26:57,020 --> 01:26:54,090 animal mutilations and you seem to have 1745 01:27:00,470 --> 01:26:57,030 some connections there well what have 1746 01:27:02,960 --> 01:27:00,480 you come to a conclusion as to what is 1747 01:27:06,020 --> 01:27:02,970 going on with the use of the mute I 1748 01:27:10,700 --> 01:27:06,030 wrote an article for UFO digest and it's 1749 01:27:13,390 --> 01:27:10,710 also on my wordpress 507 all I can do is 1750 01:27:15,710 --> 01:27:13,400 offer all about five alternative 1751 01:27:18,140 --> 01:27:15,720 possibilities you know it's like 1752 01:27:20,510 --> 01:27:18,150 everything else it blends together you 1753 01:27:25,100 --> 01:27:20,520 know you don't know what part goes there 1754 01:27:29,450 --> 01:27:25,110 and what part goes there you know it's 1755 01:27:32,150 --> 01:27:29,460 possible that it's I don't know I hear 1756 01:27:35,620 --> 01:27:32,160 we go into your paranoia it could be 1757 01:27:38,090 --> 01:27:35,630 part of this so breakaway civilization 1758 01:27:40,220 --> 01:27:38,100 obviously somebody's needing animal 1759 01:27:43,460 --> 01:27:40,230 parts and there's no that it's not 1760 01:27:46,040 --> 01:27:43,470 predators because they you some cases or 1761 01:27:47,450 --> 01:27:46,050 they found scalpels one time my gals 1762 01:27:50,500 --> 01:27:47,460 heads been cut off 1763 01:27:55,810 --> 01:27:50,510 you know fools not predators you know 1764 01:28:01,100 --> 01:27:58,610 segue I was talking about we had going 1765 01:28:02,860 --> 01:28:01,110 up to investigate the animal mutilations 1766 01:28:05,570 --> 01:28:02,870 in Elsberry 1767 01:28:07,160 --> 01:28:05,580 and then we did some sky watch trips 1768 01:28:09,620 --> 01:28:07,170 afterwards and we went up there one 1769 01:28:11,540 --> 01:28:09,630 night this might have been my second big 1770 01:28:17,510 --> 01:28:11,550 UFO sighting but you're out in the 1771 01:28:19,490 --> 01:28:17,520 country everything is very stark stark 1772 01:28:22,610 --> 01:28:19,500 reality you look into the sky and you 1773 01:28:24,860 --> 01:28:22,620 see every star you know there had been 1774 01:28:28,460 --> 01:28:24,870 some microwave tires up on the in the 1775 01:28:31,130 --> 01:28:28,470 hills there and one was just adjacent to 1776 01:28:34,100 --> 01:28:31,140 the farmer's field that had to me late 1777 01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:34,110 at cow and we had taken a van up there 1778 01:28:40,430 --> 01:28:36,810 Barbara and her boyfriend and a video 1779 01:28:43,820 --> 01:28:40,440 camera and some cameras and we were 1780 01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:43,830 camped up on the hill there and we were 1781 01:28:50,570 --> 01:28:48,810 looking around and where's the North 1782 01:28:53,300 --> 01:28:50,580 Star oh it's over here it's a bright 1783 01:28:55,400 --> 01:28:53,310 light that's to the north and you know 1784 01:28:57,920 --> 01:28:55,410 it stood there in the north for a long 1785 01:29:01,610 --> 01:28:57,930 time and we assumed it was in our start 1786 01:29:04,610 --> 01:29:01,620 then then we saw these I saw them first 1787 01:29:08,580 --> 01:29:04,620 I said what are these little red lights 1788 01:29:12,390 --> 01:29:08,590 coming over they revolved around the 1789 01:29:14,790 --> 01:29:12,400 microwave tower I I said I said is this 1790 01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:14,800 usual or unusual what what do you call 1791 01:29:22,770 --> 01:29:18,010 this so then they just that seemed to 1792 01:29:25,650 --> 01:29:22,780 disappear those lights and then about an 1793 01:29:29,970 --> 01:29:25,660 hour later I said hey guys the North 1794 01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:29,980 Star it's moving and here's this this 1795 01:29:36,330 --> 01:29:31,930 light you know if it's an approaching 1796 01:29:38,190 --> 01:29:36,340 headlight are like an aircraft over an 1797 01:29:40,290 --> 01:29:38,200 hour's time it would vary you know 1798 01:29:44,820 --> 01:29:40,300 they'd get bigger smaller sup do 1799 01:29:47,790 --> 01:29:44,830 something this same brightness is move 1800 01:29:51,750 --> 01:29:47,800 you start moving towards a river Foley 1801 01:29:53,130 --> 01:29:51,760 Missouri is a near the river and we 1802 01:29:56,490 --> 01:29:53,140 could watch a go through the tree line 1803 01:29:58,320 --> 01:29:56,500 and say here that lights moving looks 1804 01:30:01,560 --> 01:29:58,330 like it's gonna circle around and come 1805 01:30:03,660 --> 01:30:01,570 towards us and it did and here it's 1806 01:30:07,110 --> 01:30:03,670 coming up towards the hill where we're 1807 01:30:12,330 --> 01:30:07,120 station and it seemed best stop about 80 1808 01:30:15,570 --> 01:30:12,340 degrees above US coast or turn and then 1809 01:30:17,520 --> 01:30:15,580 head back first st. Louis and it just 1810 01:30:20,550 --> 01:30:17,530 looked like an airplane it had cabin 1811 01:30:23,400 --> 01:30:20,560 lights but we couldn't see any wings and 1812 01:30:25,980 --> 01:30:23,410 I've heard a very faint whistling sound 1813 01:30:27,300 --> 01:30:25,990 like a jet sound very low and it has 1814 01:30:30,510 --> 01:30:27,310 headed back over charged the river 1815 01:30:33,420 --> 01:30:30,520 toward st. Louis I said what we're going 1816 01:30:35,790 --> 01:30:33,430 to call that a UFO or what and so they 1817 01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:35,800 felt out some sighting farms all three 1818 01:30:41,940 --> 01:30:38,890 of us and recently Barbara had put the 1819 01:30:44,070 --> 01:30:41,950 episode on the internet and I found it 1820 01:30:46,860 --> 01:30:44,080 by accident looking for things that 1821 01:30:49,410 --> 01:30:46,870 happened a bells Barry and I looked at 1822 01:30:51,780 --> 01:30:49,420 her note she had in the and that website 1823 01:30:54,210 --> 01:30:51,790 and it pretty much described what we saw 1824 01:30:56,040 --> 01:30:54,220 that evening she didn't see the red 1825 01:30:57,960 --> 01:30:56,050 light circle the tower she said she's 1826 01:30:59,790 --> 01:30:57,970 seen him come up over the horizon 1827 01:31:01,890 --> 01:30:59,800 and it could just be a matter of not 1828 01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:01,900 look but the description of that that 1829 01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:05,530 plane or whatever it was pretty well 1830 01:31:09,510 --> 01:31:06,130 jibed 1831 01:31:12,570 --> 01:31:09,520 and I think it's awful was awful unusual 1832 01:31:15,300 --> 01:31:12,580 for an airplane to act that way if as a 1833 01:31:16,680 --> 01:31:15,310 helicopter I don't think we couldn't 1834 01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:16,690 what we wouldn't have seen cabin lights 1835 01:31:20,490 --> 01:31:18,010 like that along 1836 01:31:23,460 --> 01:31:20,500 the side of the fuselage were you were 1837 01:31:27,210 --> 01:31:23,470 you involved at all in the Piedmont a 1838 01:31:29,160 --> 01:31:27,220 Piedmont that's a UFO yeah oh yeah yeah 1839 01:31:32,729 --> 01:31:29,170 I even wrote an article for Probie 1840 01:31:34,800 --> 01:31:32,739 unknown well that said to send us a copy 1841 01:31:36,240 --> 01:31:34,810 of that because we might reprint it I 1842 01:31:45,240 --> 01:31:36,250 mean certainly the rights have reverted 1843 01:31:50,340 --> 01:31:45,250 back to you it ended up with the Harley 1844 01:31:52,500 --> 01:31:50,350 Rutledge's remember the physicist send 1845 01:31:57,360 --> 01:31:52,510 me it copy that because I'm working on a 1846 01:31:59,850 --> 01:31:57,370 book which is on a UFO basis and that 1847 01:32:02,310 --> 01:31:59,860 certainly would be would be one of them 1848 01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:02,320 I'd like to include that in the in the 1849 01:32:10,080 --> 01:32:05,650 am in the book it goes back yeah they 1850 01:32:12,270 --> 01:32:10,090 said they are no I don't know I that was 1851 01:32:14,930 --> 01:32:12,280 the main that was the main that was the 1852 01:32:18,570 --> 01:32:14,940 main flap because nothing really after 1853 01:32:21,570 --> 01:32:18,580 Rutledge dr. Rutledge passed away 1854 01:32:23,280 --> 01:32:21,580 the sightings seemed to dissipate I 1855 01:32:25,680 --> 01:32:23,290 don't know I guess maybe nobody was 1856 01:32:27,900 --> 01:32:25,690 keeping track of them or or sometimes I 1857 01:32:29,870 --> 01:32:27,910 think it mainly mainly as there was 1858 01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:29,880 nobody going down and doing 1859 01:32:35,610 --> 01:32:32,650 investigations like he did he was pretty 1860 01:32:37,440 --> 01:32:35,620 thorough in honest you know you just 1861 01:32:39,380 --> 01:32:37,450 described what he saw and there was a 1862 01:32:42,300 --> 01:32:39,390 lot of synchronicity strange 1863 01:32:44,700 --> 01:32:42,310 synchronicity I happened to his 1864 01:32:45,930 --> 01:32:44,710 sightings but he said hey guys I'm gonna 1865 01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:45,940 have to interrupt you here because we 1866 01:32:50,370 --> 01:32:48,130 have about less than three minutes left 1867 01:32:52,200 --> 01:32:50,380 in the show so we want to give both of 1868 01:32:54,030 --> 01:32:52,210 you a chance to let our audience know 1869 01:32:56,729 --> 01:32:54,040 where they can find out more about you 1870 01:32:59,160 --> 01:32:56,739 mark what about you the name of your 1871 01:33:02,910 --> 01:32:59,170 book where they can find it website 1872 01:33:05,850 --> 01:33:02,920 things are clear well I named my current 1873 01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:05,860 book is behold the pale that's the book 1874 01:33:11,400 --> 01:33:08,890 based on his name of it is pale horse 1875 01:33:14,820 --> 01:33:11,410 rider and you can get it at any 1876 01:33:15,870 --> 01:33:14,830 bookstore or Amazon or elles are those 1877 01:33:19,020 --> 01:33:15,880 Internet people 1878 01:33:22,140 --> 01:33:19,030 and then I've written several other 1879 01:33:23,580 --> 01:33:22,150 books including a book about narrated 1880 01:33:26,970 --> 01:33:23,590 from the point of view of Godzilla 1881 01:33:31,020 --> 01:33:26,980 called Gojira she's ridden a few years 1882 01:33:33,150 --> 01:33:31,030 ago and I have a 1883 01:33:34,860 --> 01:33:33,160 I have an Instagram account which is 1884 01:33:37,770 --> 01:33:34,870 basically dealing with the bill Cooper 1885 01:33:41,550 --> 01:33:37,780 material and other stuff which is called 1886 01:33:43,590 --> 01:33:41,560 pale horse for pale horse rider book and 1887 01:33:44,820 --> 01:33:43,600 Instagram and you can look that up and 1888 01:34:05,760 --> 01:33:44,830 there's a lot of material there you 1889 01:34:08,430 --> 01:34:05,770 might find interesting and fun in the 1890 01:34:16,880 --> 01:34:08,440 car during the rain there mark when we 1891 01:34:21,740 --> 01:34:16,890 first met what about you yeah I have a 1892 01:34:25,380 --> 01:34:21,750 wordpress site it's a wordpress comm 1893 01:34:27,090 --> 01:34:25,390 57.4 press.com and it has a number of my 1894 01:34:31,410 --> 01:34:27,100 articles on there and we cover different 1895 01:34:33,120 --> 01:34:31,420 topics you can find a lot of infected 1896 01:34:36,030 --> 01:34:33,130 probably that article in the mutilation 1897 01:34:39,750 --> 01:34:36,040 you'll probably find on there then also 1898 01:34:42,480 --> 01:34:39,760 written for UFO digest dot-com it's 1899 01:34:45,120 --> 01:34:42,490 Robert well let's start yeah that's the 1900 01:34:47,220 --> 01:34:45,130 pretty defunct I mean you don't post too 1901 01:34:50,070 --> 01:34:47,230 much anything up there anymore well 1902 01:34:52,590 --> 01:34:50,080 Robert so involved with his radio 1903 01:34:56,130 --> 01:34:52,600 program that he kind of put it to the 1904 01:34:59,130 --> 01:34:56,140 back burner but he comes out so many 1905 01:35:02,580 --> 01:34:59,140 pop-ups on there too anyway I don't know 1906 01:35:05,270 --> 01:35:02,590 our website mister UFO secret file on 1907 01:35:11,320 --> 01:35:05,280 YouTube in our new book Jeff the talking 1908 01:35:18,170 --> 01:35:14,270 you've been listening to exploring the 1909 01:35:21,410 --> 01:35:18,180 bazaar with hosts Timothy Becky panty 1910 01:35:24,320 --> 01:35:21,420 Swartz they're taking back the night by 1911 01:35:26,900 --> 01:35:24,330 jetting non-stop across the cosmos in 1912 01:35:29,750 --> 01:35:26,910 search of the truly bizarre and totally 1913 01:35:32,570 --> 01:35:29,760 unexplained with you as their coal 1914 01:35:36,980 --> 01:35:32,580 miners Thursday nights at 7:00 p.m. 1915 01:35:38,889 --> 01:35:36,990 Pacific 10:00 p.m. Eastern on the K cor 1916 01:35:41,350 --> 01:35:38,899 digital radio 1917 01:35:44,770 --> 01:35:41,360 for more information on exploring the 1918 01:35:47,649 --> 01:35:44,780 bazaar and hosts timothy Beckley and tim 1919 01:35:50,739 --> 01:35:47,659 Swartz check out their kco our digital 1920 01:35:56,979 --> 01:35:50,749 radio network follow their YouTube